-
Navy Aces & Pilots
-
- Topics:
- Genda Minoru
- The Death of
Saburo Sakai
- Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's 12
minus 4 Hellcats!
- Saburo Sakai
- The "last" Ace!
(Lt. Kanno) *PIC*
- Sakai's
impressions of aces
- Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi
- Genda - Sakai Controversy
- Lieutenant Commander Shigeru Itaya
- Akamatsu Sadaaki
- Nishizawa's Zero At Pearl Harbor
- "7-104" - Iwamoto´s Rabaul Zero?
*PIC*
- "The Zero Mayor" KUROSAWA, Takeo
- Re: ITO Motoe (New)
- Kano's victory markings (New)
- Iwamoto's 3-104
(New)
- Lt. Cdr. MATSUMURA, Hirata *PIC*
(New)
- Lt.
Cdr. TADA, Atsuji *PIC* (New)
- Lt. HITSUJI Tsuneo
/ Toko Ku (New)
- ho-ichi Sugita (New)
-
-
-
- Posted By: Paul Fontenoy
<mailto:fontenoy@clis.com?subject=Genda Minoru>
Date: Monday, 9 October 2000, at 1:39 p.m.
-
- Gentlemen,
- Can anyone tell me the dates of
Genda's birth and death and the places where these events occurred?
- TIA
- Paul Fontenoy
-
- Re: Genda Minoru
-
- Posted By: Jim Broshot
<mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Genda Minoru>
Date: Monday, 9 October 2000, at 5:00 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Genda Minoru (Paul
Fontenoy)
-
- Can't give exact details, but his
obituary from THE NEW YORK TIMES (Thursday, August 17, 1989) stated:
- he "was a native of Hiroshima
and a 1924 graduate of the Japanese Naval Academy;"
- he was 84 when he "died of
heart disease in a Tokyo hospital Tuesday on the 44th anniversary of the
end of World War II. He would have been 85 years old yesterday [August 16,
1989?]"
-
-
- Posted By: Ron Werneth
<mailto:ron1977@interaccess.com?subject=The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Saturday, 23 September 2000, at 7:49 a.m.
-
- Bad news out of Japan, legendary
Zero pilot Saburo Sakai died of a sudden heart attack. No more details at
the moment. I am honored to have met the man with my comrade Hiroyuki.
Will advise when more details become available.
- Ron Werneth
-
- Tribute to Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Mike Gawell
<mailto:rockavenger@hotmail.com?subject=Tribute to Saburo Sakai>
Date: Thursday, 28 September 2000, at 11:12 a.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death
of Saburo Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- To the Family, Friends, Comrades,
J-aircraft.com Colleagues, and those in admiration of Sakai-San
- I too would like to join all of
you on the flightline to add my salute in solemn honor of a great and
honorable man.
- As Sakai San lifts off to fly
west, let us lift our voices and take our hats off to him and wish him
well in his journey to a new base of operations.
- Hero, Husband, Father, Gentleman,
Ace of Warriors, Sensei, let us honor you by adopting your creed and
conviction as our own. Your inspiration will lead us to teach others of
your countries' exploits, and the lessons of your age.
- I never met you Sakai San, but you
have taught me much through others who have. My Children, and my
children's children will know of you.
- As you make that last fast low
pass, barrel roll your A6M2 Zero-Sen into the sky, and head west into the
setting sun, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Thank
you for your life.
- I am humbled before you
Mike Gawell
-
- New information of
the Death of Saburo Sakai
-
- Posted By: Takeru
<mailto:takeru_s@mail.goo.ne.jp?subject=New information of the Death of
Saburo Sakai>
Date: Tuesday, 26 September 2000, at 7:46 p.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death
of Saburo Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- I wrote he was invited to the
Yokosuka Naval base before, but it was mistake. Mr. Sakai was invited to
the Atugi Naval base. I am very sorry about this. Even live in Japan,
there is little information about the death of Mr. Sakai.
- His last word was "May I
sleep, now?"
- Also, his informal funeral was
Sept. 26. It was the funeral for the family and people who were close to
him. At the end of his informal funeral, his fellow soldiers sang
"Rabaul Kokutai." The formal funeral will be Oct. 14.
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Bill Leyh
<mailto:hawk81@pacbell.net?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 12:56 a.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- That is very saddening. I liked
him very much - even though I never met him. His was the first story of a
Japanese airman I ever read. I was greatly moved by his strong sense of
humanity and the eloquence with which he bore his soul for us to
appreciate the value of life and the hideousness of war. Re: The
Death of
-
- Saburo Sakai
-
- Posted By: Bill Leyh
<mailto:hawk81@pacbell.net?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 12:56 a.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- That is very saddening. I liked
him very much - even though I never met him. His was the first story of a
Japanese airman I ever read. I was greatly moved by his strong sense of
humanity and the eloquence with which he bore his soul for us to
appreciate the value of life and the hideousness of war.
- He finally gets to hear Hatsuyo
play the piano again
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Bill Turner
<mailto:wturner@rclco.com?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 12:34 a.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death of Saburo
Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- Really one of the true legends of
fighter pilots. I remember reading his biography ("Samurai") as
a young boy, and really was in awe of this fellow: one tough dude! His
flight back to Rabaul after being shot up and blinded in one eye, and
partially blind in the other, is really one of the great feats of flying,
courage and will to survive - EVER.
- The toughest of adversaries, he
was a true "experten." I saw a recent story about him, I believe
it was on this website. Something about Sakai flying alongside a U.S. or
British DC-3, seeing that it was completely helpless, and letting it fly
away. Seems that one of the passengers, a nurse, recalled the event many
years later and the connection between the incident and Sakai was somehow
made. Anyone hear about this?
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai *PIC*
-
- Posted By: Garth
<mailto:ocky@hotmail.com?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai
*PIC*>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 6:43 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Bill Turner)
-
- "Something about Sakai flying
alongside a U.S. or British DC-3, seeing that it was completely helpless,
and letting it fly away."
- On February 28, 1942 he
encountered a DC-3 transport while on a lone patrol mission east of
Surabaya, Java. Pacing the aircraft, when he pulled alongside to inspect
it before shooting it down he noticed a blonde haired woman and a small
child peering at him through a fuselage window - Sakai spared the
transport, letting it go on its way.
- (Source: page 16 of "Imperial
Japanese Navy Aces of WWII" ISBN 84-8372-218-6).
- I regularly talk to visitors,
school children and specialist groups on Saburo Sakai (he is recorded here
at the Australian War Memorial as Sakai Saburo - which one is correct?).
As we have one of the Zero's he flew (A6m2, V-173 captured at Gasmata, New
Guinea in 1943) which is restored and now is suspended proudly next to a
RAAF P-40E Kittyhawk "Polly".
- He also requested to the
Australian Defense Minister in 1997 that the crew of a RAAF Hudson he shot
down over New Guinea in 1942 be awarded decorations for their bravery.
- For an interesting Sakai image -
go to the War Memorials photographic website and put his name in the
search engine. He is sitting on an American 500lb bomb, the location of
the photo is not known. Any help would be appreciated.
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Jim Broshot
<mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 2:43 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Bill Turner)
-
- Found this link with the story
using Yahoo:
- http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/sakai/sakai.htm
- Also found an interesting
interview with Sakai in the Electronic Telegraph archives (from 1995).
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta
<mailto:tennkats@hotmail.com?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Saturday, 23 September 2000, at 9:26 p.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death of Saburo
Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- What a shocking and sad news...
- He was a great man and
inspirational to many, including myself. Some how I expected him to live
on forever, but we must face the sad reality that all men are mortal. All
I can say is, may he rest in peace. He is now in a much better place where
he can rejoin his fallen comrades. I'm sure he'll be busy doing lots of
catching up with his buddies, Sasai-san, Nishizawa-san, Ohta-san,
Muto-san, Sugita-san, just to name a few.
-
- Good bye, Sakai-san.
- Tennessee
-
- Re: The Death of
Saburo Sakai
-
- Posted By: Don Marsh
<mailto:marsh44@fuse.net?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Saturday, 23 September 2000, at 10:45 a.m.
-
- In Response To: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Ron Werneth)
-
- Ron;
- Thank you for bringing this sad
news to my attention.
- All deaths are a sad loss, but
when bright stars such as Saburo Sakai blink from our sky, the point is
all the more poignant. Unlike yourself, I never had the pleasure of
meeting Sakai San. But from what I know about him through reading and
through others, he was obviously a great individual and a man of true
honor. Though I never met him, I still feel a tremendous loss, not only
for myself, but for our times. I've had the honor of knowing or meeting
several great men from this era that have slipped from our mortal realm
into history, and every time this happens I feel that a little piece of me
goes with them. Yet, I believe it is our duty to preserve their memories
so that they may live on in spirit, and their character inspire and
fortify posterity. Saburo Sakai will surely be remembered, and rightly so.
- Don
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Elephtheriou George
<mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo Sakai>
Date: Saturday, 23 September 2000, at 6:04 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Don Marsh)
-
- Excuse me for saying the following
in Japanese. It's the best I can do for a great man that didn't have the
chance to meet but feel so much in depth for helping me get more in touch
with Japanese aviation and the Japanese people.
- "Kokoro kara gomefuku oinori
moshiagemasu"
-
- Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: AGHIS BARBEROPOULOS
<mailto:barberopoulos@hotmail.com?subject=Re: The Death of Saburo
Sakai>
Date: Monday, 2 October 2000, at 1:27 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: The Death of
Saburo Sakai (Elephtheriou George)
-
- I am saddened as everyone who
appreciates this great pilot and remarkable man. His struggles in war have
been a source of inspiration for all of us. His accomplishments in peace
showed honor and loyalty. He was a living legend and will remain a legend
for generations to come.
- May the one-eyed warrior find the
peace he deserves now that he rejoins his fallen comrades.
-
- Posted By: C.C. Cheng <mailto:cheng.150@osu.edu?subject=Give
away your life, for your country>
- Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 4:47 p.m.
-
- Hi all the friends of Mr. Sakai
- Follow the link below, you can
find a midi of a war song of Imperial Japanese Navy, titled as 'Give away
your life, for your country'.(I hope my translation is accurate)
- http://village.infoweb.or.jp/~fwhk4659/inoti.htm
- I just learned from Mr. Takeru
that this melody was usually played at Japanese Naval funeral.
- May I suggest that Mr. Sakai's
friends could play this melody on 14 October for this old sailor, naval aviator
as a final salute? if you can not attend Mr. Sakai's funeral.
- Regards
C.C.
-
- Re: Give away your life, for
your country
-
- Posted By: Bill Turner
<mailto:wturner@rclco.com?subject=Re: Give away your life, for your
country>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 6:52 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Give away your life,
for your country (C.C. Cheng)
-
- How about "Umi Yukaba"
(When You Go To Sea). I've heard this a number times. It's also played in
"Tora, Tora, Tora" at the beginning of the film, when Yamamoto
arrives on the Nagato and inspects the assembled officers.
-
- Posted By: Takeru <mailto:takeru_s@mail.goo.ne.jp?subject=Farewell
message to Mr. Sakai>
- Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 8:34 a.m.
-
- Hello, everyone.
I introduce Japanese history and martial arts magazine’s HP bbs.
This magazine had very deep relationship with Mr. Sakai.
So, If you want to send farewell message to Mr. Sakai, please write at
this bbs.
I told to the editor and he accepts your farewell messages and brings it
to Mr. Sakai’s family.
You can write in English.
- URL is http://www.budotusin.com/bbs/bbs.cgi
- However, there are one big problem
which is this HP is all Japanese, no English page.
So, if you can not write your message, send it to me. I will write your
message for you.
- Also, I want you to tell this to
everybody in the world who wants to say good-bye to Mr. Sakai.
-
- Mr. Sakai's last work
-
- Posted By: Takeru
<mailto:takeru_s@mail.goo.ne.jp?subject=Mr. Sakai's last work>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 10:14 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Farewell message to
Mr. Sakai (Takeru)
-
- Mr. Sakai's last work is sold on
this site:
-
- You can buy it on web. It's all
Japanese, but you can use translator to read it in English. Also, there is
Mr. Sakai's interview on the magazine called BUDO TUSIN vol.8. This one is
publishing version. If you want to have it, please wait till it is sold on
line or contact to sugiyama@budotusin.com
-
- Saburo Sakai: my inspiration
-
- Posted By: Ron Werneth
<mailto:ron1977@interaccess.com?subject=Saburo Sakai: my inspiration>
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 10:58 p.m.
-
- Hello all,
- I failed to mention Sakai-san is
the reason on why my book is being written in Japanese navy pilots. His
book "Samurai" got my interested in Japanese aviation. After
reading his book, I made up my mind to meet the man. This is pretty hard
for non-Japanese, American, but it became a reality after two trips to
Japan and three years of networking. Now, I am moving to Japan to continue
my work. May Sakai-san rest in peace in a better place above the earth.
-
- Regards,
- Ron
-
- Re: Saburo Sakai: my
inspiration
-
- Posted By: LCDR Jeffrey Barta, USN
<mailto:barta.j@hsl51.navy.mil?subject=Re: Saburo Sakai: my
inspiration>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 1:07 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Saburo Sakai: my
inspiration (Ron Werneth)
-
- Sadly, Saburo-san died just hours
after attending the American Navy's Commander, Fleet Air Western Pacific
50th Anniversary dinner, and just one week before he was to meet and be
honored by the "Warlords" of HSL 51 at NAF Atsugi. He will be
greatly missed by all who had the honor of knowing him, but his spirit
lives on. Kempai, Saburo-san!
-
- Posted By: Sander Kingsepp <mailto:sander.kingsepp@neti.ee?subject=Re:
Saburo Sakai: my inspiration>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 7:24 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Saburo Sakai: my
inspiration (Ron Werneth)
-
- Yes, it's a sad news indeed.
Saburo Sakai and his "Samurai" were my inspiration too. I was
translating the "Ozora no Samurai" into Estonian and hoped to
present it to him sometime...
- At least he lived a full and good
life.
-
- Regards,
- Sander
-
- SABURO SAKAI (1916-2000):
A Memorium *PIC*
-
- Posted By: James F. Lansdale
<mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=SABURO SAKAI (1916-2000): A Memorium
*PIC*>
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 4:22 p.m.
-
- Saburo SAKAI, a legend in his own
time, has "slipped the surly bonds of earth" to dance "the
skies on laughter-silvered wings. Sunward (he has) climbed (to join) the
tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds…." ("High Flight "by
P.O. John G. Magee, Jr.)
- We will always remember the
scowling and determined young "Sea Eagle" and the mirthful
octogenarian and proud grandparent. We will also remember his loyalty,
courage, and sense of honor as well as his motto, "Never say
die!"
- Saburo SAKAI will always be with
us in our hearts.
-
- Jim Lansdale,
J-Aircraft.com JN Aircraft Board Moderator
-
-
- Posted By: Elephtheriou George
<mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4
Hellcats!>
Date: Sunday, 4 February 2001, at 1:46 p.m.
-
- Konnichi wa minasama,
in the "Zero" book by Okumiya Masatake, Horikoshi Jiro with
Martin Caidin, pbs. Bantam 1991, pages 330-331, among a very vivid and
quite detailed description it is written that "Flight Warrant Officer
Kinsuke (?) Muto of the Yokosuka Navy Air corps" took on twelve
Hellcat fighters alone in his Shiden-Kai, downing four and forced the
remaining eight to "break off the engagement and flee the area".
Also, "pilots watching from Atsugi did not know the name of the
pilot...".
The above story is repeated and confirmed in the MA 439, pbs. 1994,
author: Oshio Kazuhiko. Pilot's name is Muto Kanayoshi.
On the other hand, in the Osprey's "I.J.N. Aces 1937-45" by
Henry Sakaida, 1998, pages 93-94-95, pilot's name is Kaneyoshi Muto and
the above story is concidered a myth made by the press of the time
"surviving to this day". Muto was not alone but together with
"his squadronmates".
- We have two older books against
one new.
Myth or reality? Any ideas? Any other books mentioning the above story?
-
Domo
George
-
- Ens. Muto *PIC*
-
- Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=Ens.
Muto *PIC*>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2001, at 7:50 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Ens. Muto
Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats! (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Hi!
- Well, according to Sakai, Muto
"Mutokin" Kaneyoshi reminded him of Miyamoto Musashi when he
shot four F6Fs down. So Muto was called "Miyamoto Musashi of the
Sky".
- Ens. Muto was wanted by Capt.
Genda of 343 ku to support Lt. Kanno, so he went to Matsuyama from
Yokosuka. On the other hand, Ens. Sakai Saburo went to Yokosuka ku from
343 ku at the same time.
-
- Best regards,
Katsuhiro
- Picture: special thanks to Budo
Tsuushin
-
- Damage Reports should be
researched.
-
- Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=Damage
Reports should be researched.>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 6:12 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Ens. Muto *PIC*
(Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Another opinion of mine:
I think the "official" damage reports from both sides are the
most important things.
Because the victory reports from both sides were not so accurate. They
were sometimes exaggerated, and sometimes underestimated.
-
- Regards,
Uchida Katsuhiro
-
- Re: Ens. Muto
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
Ens. Muto>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 5:58 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Ens. Muto *PIC*
(Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Good to hear from you again
Katsuhiro! Thanks for the Pic!
Sakai, Nishizawa, Muto and Yamazaki as well as Sakai's Iwo Wingman Shiga
are the most intriguing (to me that is) JNAF Pilots... ooops! Almost
forgot "Mustachio" Hagiri as well!
-
- Cheers!
- =Martin
-
- Re: Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's
12 minus 4 Hellcats!
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:Mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats!>
Date: Monday, 5 February 2001, at 2:39 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Ens. Muto
Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats! (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Although I am intrigued with Muto
(Kaneyoshi and Kinsuke is the same man. One is a First Name, the other a
Nick Name. I forget which is which.) I think that story may be a bit of an
error. Sakai who flew with him at Iwo and in Home Defense sings his
praises, but says that particular story is exaggerated. According to Sakai
(don't have my sources with me) Muto had shot down multiple Hellcats on a
number of occasions, and may have shot down four on the occasion that you
mention. However, Sakai seriously doubts there were twelve Hellcats there.
However, one never knows....Muto was, according to Sakai "Nishizawa,
Sasai and Ota all rolled up into one" and "the toughest pilot in
the navy!" Kinsuke (as he preferred to be called) was one of the
best. Up there with Nishizawa, Sakai, Foss, McCambell, Moelders and Wick,
etc etc.
-
- Re: Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's
12 minus 4 Hellcats!
-
- Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats!>
Date: Sunday, 4 February 2001, at 8:38 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Ens. Muto
Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats! (Elephtheriou George)
-
- I would tend to believe this story
but that is based solely on my own opinion. As mentioned it does appear in
Zero,
it also appears in Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units of World War II,
Izawa, and Gorham. A verry similar story also appears in Samurai. The main
differences is that it involves 12 Corsairs instead of 12 Hellcats and
Muto is flying a Zero instead of a George. If it is the same or a
different event I can not be sure he also claimed 4 shot down that day.
-
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's
12 minus 4 Hellcats!
-
- Posted By: Elephtheriou George
<mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4
Hellcats!>
Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2001, at 12:43 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Ens. Muto
Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats! (Cruiser K)
-
- Interesting!!
Now the score is up to four "old" books against one
"new".
Dealing twice with twelve enemy planes, shooting down 4 in both occasions
and surviving, makes him...the best pilot in the world???
No, I think it's the same incident. All books except Samurai, state that
he flew a George.
I only wonder if one book repeats another....
What Martin is mentioning, that Sakai didn't believe this story to be
true, I think is a guessing.
I also wonder what sources Sakaida san got his matterial from on this.
- Come on!!! Any other sources?
-
Domo
George
-
- Re: Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's
12 minus 4 Hellcats!
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
Ens. Muto Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats!>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 6:07 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Ens. Muto
Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats! (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Hi George!
Good reasoning.
I've read these books too and always figured they were the same account.
Regardless if Muto was flying a Zero or a George and if his kills were
Hellcats or Corsairs, it must be the same story and he was one heck of a
pilot!
- However, Sakai may have been
guessing when he said something doubtful about the incident. Who knows? I
think that sometimes storys do get blown out of proportion, and that's
what he was trying to say in that particular instance. (I'll look and see
if I can find where I read that...can't recall without my books with me
and they are not here now)
- When it comes to
"quotes" though, we all have to remember that when we read a
book, the Author claims so and so said this or that. It isn't gospel, as
Sakai himself has allegedly denied some of the stories in
"Samurai!". However, I am not guessing. When I do guess, I
usually qualify my guess with stating that it "is just my
opinion".
- I enjoy your postings...
-
- Cheers!!
- =Martin
-
-
- Posted By: Bill <mailto:debbillsmith@aol.com?subject=Saburo
Sakai>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 11:14 a.m.
-
- Hi,
I am looking for information on Sakai's Zero that he flew when he was shot
up over Guadalcanal by those SBD's. I would like to know the type Zero he
flew, its markings and the colors of it in order to make a model of it for
our collection. If anyone has a picture, color, would you be willing to
supply me with it to work from. In any case any help would be greatly
appreciated. I have a print signed by him from the seventies and it is
still one of my favorites in our collection. Thanks all for taking the
time to read this.
- Regards,
Bill
-
- Re: Zeros Flown By Saburo
Sakai *PIC*
-
- Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re:
Zeros Flown By Saburo Sakai *PIC*>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 7:57 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Saburo Sakai
(Bill)
-
- Hi Bill
- Re: Saburo SAKAI's Zeros: Color
and Markings
- Four different A6M2 Zeros are
alleged to have been flown by Saburo SAKAI and documented by Henry SAKAIDA
in his biography of SAKAI, "Winged Samurai." According to
SAKAIDA, SAKAI san has flown A6M2 model 21s carrying Tainan ku tail codes
as follows: [V-103, V-107, V-128, and V-172]. Of these four aircraft, only
two are known by serial number. Mitsubishi built A6M2 model 21, s/n 3647
[V-103], constructed on 3 March 1942, and A6M2 model 21, s/n 5784 [V-172
according to SAKAI], constructed during May 1942.
- No one knows for certain which
Zero SAKAI san flew on 10 December 1941 in his attack on Capt. Colin
KELLY's B-17. However, we do know its color! According to 2nd Lt. Joe M.
BEAN, navigator on the ill-fated B-17, in his eyewitness account at the
time, the attacking Zeros, "were painted a soft, pale green"
[Walter D. EDMONDS, They Fought With What They Had (Boston: Little, Brown
and Co, 1951, 128-129)]. A U.S.A.A.F aircraft intelligence report for
August 1942 also noted that these Japanese aircraft were a "light
greenish-grey."
- In 1993, a Mitsubishi built A6M2
model 21 s/n 3647 coded [V-103] was recovered from a swamp on Gudalacanal
with crew remains on board. While the crew remains are still unknown, the
aircraft has been identified as one of those flown by SAKAI san. It may or
may not be the one flown on his eventful mission of 7 August 1942. From
its manufacture date (3 March 1942) we do know that it was not one of his
early mounts.
- John CHOTU, a Honiaru, Guadalcanal
resident and American Charles HAGEN, examined and documented the aircraft
remains of A6M2 s/n 3647 as follows:
- "Overall scheme was a
severely weathered flat, pale gray. Pieces, which were protected by
overlying coats of paint or overlapping pieces of metal, were dirty light
olive or gray-green."
- Fragments from this aircraft,
after rubbing with an abrasive compound (toothpaste!) were matched to
FS-26350 six years after the recovery date. These fragments were recovered
by CHOTU from a pile at Honiaru International Airport from what little
fragments remain of this historic aircraft.
- "The diagonal fuselage stripe
was red and located a few centimeters behind the fuselage (hinomaru) and
was approximately 15 cm in width. The fuselage was largely destroyed in
the crash and an accurate measurement of the fuselage stripe width was not
possible."
- "The (fin) markings were (V-1
on one side and 03 on the other), painted black , and there were remnants
of a horizontal stripe, 10 cm wide, about 3-cm above the V-1 marking on
the left side. The paint from the stripe had worn off, however some white
flakes remained. The underlying paint was darker and more light olive or
dirty gray in color."
- If this report is accurate and
this aircraft (see drawing below (c) by Don MARSH below) was indeed one
flown by SAKAI san, then we now have a basis for a more accurate rendering
of one of his mounts.
-
- Jim Lansdale
-
- Re: V-173 another? The
'Down Under' Reisen
-
- Posted By: Garth <mailto:goconnell@dingoblue.net.au?subject=Re:
V-173 another? The 'Down Under' Reisen>
Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 3:49 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Zeros Flown By
Saburo Sakai *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
-
- I have read from sources here at
the Australian War Memorial that Sakai came out to Australia during the
1980's to confirm the identity of the A6m2 "V-173" of the Tainan
AG that we have on display here.
- Apparently his log-book entries
confirmed this, so if anybody has access to these we may be able to find
some firm evidence. The particular A6m2 we have was captured on Gasmata
airfield, New Guinea in 1943 by Australian troops. It was recovered in the
1970's and restored by the Royal Australian Air Force in the 1980's -
Sakai then came 'Down Under' and confirmed its Identity, colours and
markings.
-
-
- Re: V-173 another? The
'Down Under' Reisen
-
- Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re:
V-173 another? The 'Down Under' Reisen>
Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 6:19 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: V-173 another?
The 'Down Under' Reisen (Garth)
-
- Hi Garth
- In Henry SAKAIDA's "Winged
Samurai" Henry wrote on page 146, "The airframe number is 5784
and the aircraft-within-unit number was V-173 according to (Charles)
Darby, V-172 according to (Saburo) Sakai."
- Take your pick!!!
-
- Jim Lansdale
-
- Re: Zeros Flown By Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Micah Bly <mailto:micahbly@visi.com?subject=Re:
Zeros Flown By Saburo Sakai>
Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001, at 11:25 p.m.
-
- In Response To: (James F.
Lansdale)
-
- Jim,
- Do we know what he was flying
later in the war, when he took on the 16 F6Fs and survived? I don't
remember off hand, but it seems like it would have been 1945, at Okinawa.
But don't quote me on it.
- Was he still flying model 21s that
late in the war?
-
- Micah Bly
-
- Re: Zeros Flown By Saburo
Sakai
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
Zeros Flown By Saburo Sakai>
Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 6:19 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Zeros Flown By
Saburo Sakai (Micah Bly)
-
- Great Question! What model Zero
was Sakai-san flying when he took on all those Hellcats? But I can answer
some of your questions....(Got "Winged Samurai" with me :O) )
According to Winged Samurai Page 114, The fight with all those Hellcats
was June 14, 1944 and he was stationed at Iwo Jima. They (the Japanese)
lost about 40 (yikes) Zeros with mostly green pilots. The book says Sakai
claimed 3 Hellcats in that particular fight. I've read somewhere (maybe in
this very book) I don't recall and don't have time at the moment to scour
the book and look- at anyrate, he said is Samurai! I believe it was, that
they accounted for maybe 10 Hellcats, mostly between himself, Kinsuke
Muto, Mitsuo "Mustachio" Hagiri (who fought in China with Sakai
and survived the war as well) and a number of other Zero Pilots put in a
claim for a Hellcat. But the Zeros were decimated. This was a familiar
pattern for the Wing stationed at Iwo. Sakai, Hagiri, Muto and one of
Sakai's Wingmen named Masami Shiga were shortly thereafter re assigned to
Japan and participated in Home Defense from there until the end of the
War. Sakai, Hagiri and Shiga managed to survive the War....
- Hope this helps with some of your
questions anyway.
- Anyone have info on the model Zero
Sakai flew?
-
- Cheers!
- Martin
-
- Re: Addition to : Zeros
Flown By Saburo Sakai
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
Addition to : Zeros Flown By Saburo Sakai>
Date: Thursday, 8 February 2001, at 6:43 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Zeros Flown By
Saburo Sakai (Martin)
-
- Other books give a different day
of the Month in which this particular scrap took place, as well as the
losses the Zero Pilots took. Some say they lost "only" *ahem*
only 23 Zeros. However, they all say the scrap took place over Iwo waters
in June 1944 and that other than a few stand out performances by Sakai,
Muto and Hagiri in particular, was a one sided victory for the U.S. Navy
Pilots....
-
- Cheers!
- Martin
-
-
- Posted By: <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=The
'last' Ace! (Lt. Kanno) *PIC*>
Date: Sunday, 28 January 2001, at 10:48 p.m.
- Hi all!
- He is Lt. KANNO, Naoshi, squadron
leader of S301, 343rd Ku. He led N1K2-Js under the command of Capt. Genda
from Dec. 25, 1944 until he was killed on Aug. 1, 1945.
By the way, he was a class mate of Lt. SEKI, Yukio at the Naval Academy.
-
- Regards,
K.Uchida
-
- S301 Hikotai of 343
ku, 1945 *PIC*
-
- Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=S301
Hikotai of 343 ku, 1945 *PIC*>
Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2001, at 5:30 a.m.
-
- In Response To: The
"last" Ace! (Lt. Kanno) *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Hi all,
- This is a picture of S301st
Hikotai, 343rd ku taken in 1945. (Picture's Credit: Mr. RYU Tokyo, Japan)
- Front Row (from L to R):
2nd person; Lt. KANNO, Naoshi (squadron leader, S301), 4th person; Capt.
GENDA, Minoru (commander, 343 ku)
- 2nd Row (from R to L):
3rd person; Ens. SUGITA, Shoichi
- S301 was named "Shinsengumi"
("the New Chosen Ones") by Genda and Kanno. If you would like to
know about the original "Shinsengumi" of 19th century, please
visit the site indicated below.
The words written on the nameplate on right side are "Kaigun
Shinsengumi Shikijo" (Navy "Shinsengumi" command post).
- Sugita was one of the six escort
pilots of Adm. Yamamoto's LAST flight. This experience was, needless to
say, Sugita's bitterest memory. He was one of the best pilot of Kanno's
S301.
One day, when S301 tried to intercept US fighter planes, Genda suddenly
stopped them to take off because US fighters were almost over the
airfield. But it was too late. Kanno and Sugita saw the "Z" flag
at the same time. In this case, "Z" flag meant the combat sign
from Genda. Genda did not have time to fold "Z" flag. Kanno
succeeded to take off, but Sugita was shot down when he was taking off.
After Sugita's death, Kanno became very sad and Genda regretted. So Genda
promised Kanno to bring him another superior pilot. His name was Ens.
MUTO, Kaneyoshi. Genda sent Ens. SAKAI, Saburo to Yokosuka ku and took
Muto to his 343 ku from Yokosuka ku.
- For further information, please
find the books about 343ku.
-
- Best regards,
Katsuhiro
-
-
- C6N Saiuns were the
"eyes" of 343 ku. *PIC*
-
- Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=C6N
Saiuns were the 'eyes' of 343 ku. *PIC*>
Date: Friday, 16 February 2001, at 6:27 a.m.
-
- In Response To: S301 Hikotai of
343 ku, 1945 *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Hi all,
- Although this is not the picture
of C6N which belonged to famous T4th Hiko-tai ("Kiheitai") of
343 ku, I would like to post this picture because 343 ku thought that
reconnaissance plane was very important.
Is there anyone who can add some more stories about Hikotais of 343 ku?
-
- Best regards,
Katsuhiro
- Picture provided by "Mr.
KEY"
-
- Re: S301 Hikotai of 343 ku,
1945
-
- Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
S301 Hikotai of 343 ku, 1945>
Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2001, at 11:01 p.m.
-
- In Response To: S301 Hikotai of
343 ku, 1945 *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- WOW this is incredible! I knew
that all these pilots Kanno, Sugita, Muto, and Sakai at one time were
affiliated with 343 in some form or fashion. However I didn't know this
detail that linked there history. I knew from Samurai
that Sakai served with 343 ku as an instructor pilot and possibly a test
pilot "I am not certain if Sakai served combat with 343 but I don't
think he did", I knew about Sugita's doomed escort mission and about
his tragic last mission. However I didn't know about Genda's promise to
replace Sugita with Muto. I knew Muto served with 343 but this news is
incredible to me. Just think if just one more of these great aces would
have survived the war and put their histories in writing how much more we
would know.
-
- Sincerely,
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: S301 Hikotai of 343 ku,
1945
-
- Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=Box
Art (Kanno's N1K2-J 'A 343-15') *PIC*>
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 3:10 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: S301 Hikotai
of 343 ku, 1945 (Cruiser K)
-
- Yes, Cruiser K,
- I also think if just one more of
these great aces would have survived the war and put their histories in
writing how much more we would know.
- Genda said in his book that he
sent Sakai to Yokosuka ku because of his "eye". According to
Genda, he wanted Muto by all means to support Kanno. So he had to send a
superior pilot to Yokosuka ku. Unfortunately, Sakai had bad sight since he
was injured over Guadalcanal, but Genda was sure he could be a superior
test pilot. (As you know, Yokosuka Kokutai was a kind of
"laboratory".)
-
- Regards,
Katsuhiro
-
- Re: S301 Hikotai of 343 ku,
1945
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
S301 Hikotai of 343 ku, 1945>
Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2001, at 8:30 a.m.
-
- In Response To: S301 Hikotai of
343 ku, 1945 *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Hi Katsuhiro! Good to hear from
you as always! Nice pic, too! Yes, it's too bad that an aviator of
Sugita's caliber died in such a way and so close to the end of the
war.(Luftwaffe Ace Walter Novotny (sp) died in similar circumstances,
while landing or taking off in a 262, a time when it was particularly
vulnerable to attack)
- Muto too, was lost so close to
then end of hostilities, though he had more of a "fighting
chance" when he met his end, it too was tragic to lose a aviator of
his caliber so close to the end of the war. Kanno was lost too, in August
of '45 if I recall correctly? (I may be mistaken)
- I've read that during this period
Saburo Sakai was a "training officer" or something similar, and
that he was denied further combat assignments after Iwo Jima. Anyone know
if this is true?
-
- Cheers!
- Martin
-
- Re: S301 Hikotai of 343 ku,
1945
-
- Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
S301 Hikotai of 343 ku, 1945>
Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2001, at 11:04 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: S301 Hikotai
of 343 ku, 1945 (Martin)
-
- I believe this is true as he
served as instructor at 343 ku
and Yokosuka. However Sakai flew one last combat mission after the
official end of hostilities the B-32 intercept mission. If this can be
counted.
-
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: S301 Hikotai of 343 ku,
1945
-
- Posted By: Martin <mailto:mgrant@hei.com?subject=Re:
S301 Hikotai of 343 ku, 1945>
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 5:22 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: S301 Hikotai
of 343 ku, 1945 (Cruiser K)
-
- Thanks Cruiser for the
confirmation! I was aware of the Dominator story...wasn't it called
"Hobo Queen" or something?
-
- Cheers!
- Martin
-
- Posted By: James Holloway
<mailto:Fholl46282@aol.com?subject=Sakai's impressions of aces>
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 12:14 a.m.
-
- Sirs, I've read with great
interest the postings on the last aces and want to contribute a few
things I hope will interest you. I had a chance to go over a list of
things with Mr. Sakai to get his best recollections. I believe the
Muto(flying a George) against the 12 Hellcats was true, he said he and
the entire Atsugi Airbase watched all or most of the fight from the
ground. Although they didnt know it at the time, he suspected ir was
Muto because not too many pilots were left that displyed thet fighting
caliber. He went on to say, altho Muto was the Toughest pilot in the
Navy, he and the surviving Old Hands consider Ono, who became a Gekko
nightfighter to be the "ICHI BAN PILOT" During the China
incident he landed a biplane bomber on a Chinese airfeild they were
attacking and after loading ammo from a hanger into his cockpit set the
hanger on fire and took off all under fire. Sakai san says the four Zero
pilots who did the same thing later were just copy cats. Sakai san
apparantly did not like Genda as he became angry whever he talked about
him. Finally, according to Henry Sakaida, Nishizawa mey have been a
passenger aboard a Ki 21 Sally when he was killed. Either the Navy was
using it as a hack machine or an Army pilot requested Navy men to help
navigate over the ocean.
-
- Hope this is of interest.Sincerely, James
Holloway
-
- Re: Sakai's impressions of aces
-
- Posted By: <mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=Lt.
(jg) Akamatsu *PIC*>
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 7:03 a.m.
-
- In Response To: (James
Holloway)
-
- g‚…‚Ś‚Ś‚Ź Mr.
Holloway,
- I read your posting with great
interest. Especially, the relationship between Genda and Sakai, and Navy
men as navigators on Army planes.
As you say, Sakai seemed not to like Genda. Actually, he spoke ill of
Genda in his last book. He said, "Genda was very good at
advertising. That's why his 343rd ku and N1K2-J became very famous after
the war."
- ‚a‚™ the way, this is the
picture of Lt. (jg) Akamatsu of 302nd ku (Atsugi Naval Airfield).
Sakai said that many of his episodes ‚Ź‚† him were unbelievable,
but he was a great fighter pilot anyway.
Is there anyone who can add some episodes of Akamatsu?
-
- Best regards,
Katsuhiro
- Credit of the photo: Mr. Yanagi
via Mr. Ryu
-
- Re: Lt. (jg) Akamatsu
-
- Posted By: James Holloway
<>
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 11:35 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Lt. (jg)
Akamatsu *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Hello, all, As for stories of
Akamatsu, my favourite one is that in his career, he never got a scratch
from enemy action, but in the last year of the war he broke his arm when
he dived into an airaid shelter and rhe rest of the squadron piled on
top of him. Sakai laughed alot when he spoke of him and said Akamatsu
often talked Sakai into flying his patrols so that he could drink. He
was repeatedly ordered to other units as an instructor but Cmdr Kozono
at Atsugi refused to part with him. He bragged about shooting down over
300 planes when he was drunk and nobody wanted to correct him to his
face. Unfortunately after all he went thru and to survive the war,
alchoholism finally got him. Sincerely, James Holloway
-
- Re: Lt. (jg) Akamatsu
-
- Posted By: martin
Date: Thursday, 15 February 2001, at 8:34 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Lt. (jg)
Akamatsu *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- I too have read that Saburo
Sakai allegedly said things less than complimentary about Genda....As
for Akamatsu, he was a fearless flier, and again, alledgedly given to
brawling and drinking. Not unlike Greg "pappy" Boyington of
the USMC. This has given birth to some legends that Sakai said was not
true, such as Akamatsu fying into combat drunk, and having his own air
raid warning systme hooked up in a brothel. These are things that are
said about Akamatsu that Sakai says was not true, but as our friend
Katsuhiro said, and Sakai Said, Akamatsu was a great pilot.
-
- According to Genda's
book...
-
- Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro
<mailto:katsuhiro.uchida@honeywell.com?subject=According to Genda's
book...>
Date: Wednesday, 14 February 2001, at 5:25 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Ens. Muto
Kanayoshi's 12 minus 4 Hellcats! (Elephtheriou George)
-
- Hi George and all,
- Following is additional
information.
In Capt. Genda's book "the Beginning and the End of Kaigun
Kokutai" (Bungei Shunju Co.), the author Genda described this
story. He said he was told this story by Lt. Akamatsu of Atsugi-ku. He
said in his book, "Lt. Akamatsu was so excited and said that Ens.
Muto shot down four planes until the enemies got out of Miura Peninsula.
According to Akamatsu, Muto reminded the other pilots watching this
battle from Atsugi airbase of famous Miyamoto Musashi."
-
- Best regards,
Katsuhiro
-
- Posted By: Richard Dunn <mailto:rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Friday, 29 December 2000, at 1:40 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi *No Text* *PIC* (Uchida, Katsuhiro)
-
- Katsushiro
- Thanks for the photo. With
the passing of Saburo Sakai, I wonder if it is possible to discover
whether his criticism of Lt (j.g.) Sakai regarding the July 11th,
1942 mission to Moresby (page 132 in the paperback edition of
Samurai) was his true opinion or one of Martin Caidin's
"inventions". It would be interesting to know if it
appears in the Japanese version of the book.
- Sasai led 12 Zeros escorting
21 bombers from Rabaul on that date. En route they met 6 B-17s of
the 19th BG. According to Samurai, Sasai led 6 Zeros to attack the
B-17s. No B-17s were shot down, one Zero lost, others hit, and the
under-escorted bombers were disrupted by interceptors at Moresby and
the Japanese attack a falure. Also according to the book (p.133)
Sasai received a severe reprimand for leaving the bombers.
-
- In outline this all rings
true but there are some loose ends. First the Zeros did disrupt the
B-17 attack. They jettisoned bombs and returned (four to Moresby,
two direct to Townsville) with three damaged (exactly as claimed by
the Japanese).
- Sasai as an officer and
mission leader would have known about 5th Air Attack Force (25th Air
Flotilla) Ops Order # 141 which called for 6 Zeros from Lae to join
the force from Rabaul "at Cape Nelson" on the New Guinea
coast. The B-17s were intercepted 20 miles from Cape Merkus on New
Britain prior to the scheduled rendesvous. The R/V at Cape Nelson
never took place but this is hardly Sasai's fault. Perhaps this
doesn't mitigate his responsibility but I wonder.
-
- Other loose ends. The B-17
mission report says 7 Zeros stayed with the bombers and 5 attacked
the B-17s. The cable report from Moresby and the communique based
upon it says 8 fighters escorted the bombers over Moresby. Finally,
Henry Sakaida in his book Winged Samurai, credits both Sakai and
Nishizawa with P-39s over Moresby on that date. Two P-400 Airacobras
were in fact missing after the interception.
- The Japanese command may
have been a little touchy on July 11th because on the 10th Moresby's
90mm AA guns had brought down two 4th Ku bombers including one
carrying Shosa Naonobu Tsusaki, Hikocho of the 4th.
- Elsewhere in his book Sakai
is so lavish in praise for Sasai and refers to him as a friend that
I wonder a bit about the lack of defense in this case. Maybe there
is no defense for escort fighters leaving the bombers? If Sakai and
Nishizawa did join the 6 other Zeros over Moresby, why doesn't he
say so.
-
- As far as we can tell from
Sakai and other accounts, Sasai was an outstanding leader and
fighter pilot. This was the one blemish on his record.
-
- Rick Dunn
-
- Re: Lt.(jg) SASAI,
Jun'ichi
-
- Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Monday, 15 January 2001, at 11:21 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (Richard Dunn)
-
- Rick,
It States on page 175 of my copy of Samurai that Sakai, Nishizawa,
Ota and two others joined Sasai in the interception of the B-17's.
He also does offer a slight defense saying that Sasai's decision was
poor but he and the rest of the pilots sympathized with him because
bombers had been hitting their base regularly and that they all
wanted to get a piece of the B-17's that had been giving them so
much trouble. States they damaged 3 B-17s but lost one zero, but all
zeroes received many bullet holes.
-
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: Lt.(jg) SASAI,
Jun'ichi
-
- Posted By: cruiserk <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Sunday, 14 January 2001, at 4:08 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (Richard Dunn)
-
- Rich,
this appears im my version of Sanurai! also, on page 175.
Hard cover Naval Press Institute, with Martin Caidan and Fred Saito.
I have no reason to dispute this statement.
However this book in the intro does bring to light fabrications by
Caidin that have been proven false. The most notable the B-29
shootdown. As stated earlier I would tend to believe it because it
has been widely stated that while a top notch and highly trained
naval officer from the best naval acadamey in Japan, Sasai was still
a little green in combat experience. According to Sakai attacking
the B-17s and leaving the Japanese bombers was a major mistake but
an understandable one for Allied bombers had been terroririzing the
base previously.
-
- Sincerely,
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: Sasai, Sakai,
Saito, and Caidin
-
- Posted By: James F. Lansdale
<mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Sasai, Sakai, Saito, and
Caidin>
Date: Sunday, 14 January 2001, at 6:44 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (cruiserk)
-
- Hi Cruiser
- It has been maintained that
Martin CAIDIN produced fabrications in "Samurai."
Actually, Marty did little but take Fred SAITO's manuscript and edit
some of the sentences for style. If any substantive errors occurred
in the story, then they were due to SAITO who provided CAIDIN with
the material.
- Marty never met with
SAKAI-san and died of cancer before this could be arranged. I do not
have a major problem with these allegations, but I wished to set the
record straight!
- FWI
-
- Re Straight Story
-
- Posted By: Richard Dunn <mailto:rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu?subject=Re
Straight Story>
Date: Sunday, 14 January 2001, at 2:00 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Sasai,
Sakai, Saito, and Caidin (James F. Lansdale)
-
- Jim
- Thanks.
- Somebody actually reads some
of this.
- My disclaimer. First, as a
kid in 1956 in a barber shop at Lowrey AFB (Lowrey shot down over
Lae) I came across 'True' magazine or one of those magazines in
barber shops and read about Saburo Sakai over Guadalcanal. Wow, we
could actually learn the other side of the story. What a thrill. So
I thank Fred Saito and Martin Caidin. Further, Martin Caidin was
obviously a good writer and very successful. Hey, I liked Marooned
(wasn't Richard Creena great and Martin's cameo) as well as Wings of
Gold and much else. He was probably a nice man.
- BUT... then there are the
facts. Pesky facts (Hmm. Heard that at Clinton's impeachment defense
so maybe that's not the right phrase). Anyway, I do not intend to
state here (as I have heard others do) that Martin Caidin made up
lots of stuff in many books. I will limit my comments to a few
relatively pertinent 'mistakes' (lets hope thats all they were).
- Fork Tailed Devil -- the
P-38 story. Caidin criticizes the official version and then gives
the 'real' story of Thomas McGuire's loss. His story is however more
ficticious then the official version (by the way I was again
thrilled to learn what I thought was the real version when I first
read the book).
- The Mission -- a book about
Saburo Sakai and the then sitting president of the United States
based upon a totally ficticious premise. The B-26 in which Lyndon
Johson was a passenger was approaching the landing pattern at Port
Moresby when other Marauders in the flight were encountering Sakai
and others of the Tainan Ku near Lae. He proudly wore the
Distinguished Service Cross (including in his lapel as President)
that he received for this 'mission.' Can you imagine -- an award for
valor second only to the Medal of Honor. Says something about
MacArthur's political savvy as well. This fiction -- that Sakai
fought with the 'Heckling Hare' carrying Johson -- was repeated in
his obituary in some major newspapers.
- Back to Samurai -- the story
of Tainan/251 Ku and I-Operation is totally wrong. That operation in
early/mid April was over before 251 redeployed the Southeast Area in
May 1943. Tainan ku did not lose 49 planes there. It wasn't there.
Those loses were among several air groups none of which was 251. You
already know about the 'night' mission against the 'B-29' from Sakai
himself.
- Fred Saito cannot be blamed
for all of this! Again, Martin Caidin probably brought enlightenment
and joy to many of us. But he got major things wrong. He was no
paragon. He wrote some non-history that has entered the popular
version of history. That's a problem.
- Hope I have not offended
anyone by expressing these opinions. I'm sure I've made some
mistakes in things I have written.
-
- Rick Dunn
-
- Re: Decorations
-
- Posted By: Pete Chalmers
<mailto:pchalmers@carolina.rr.com?subject=Re: Decorations>
Date: Tuesday, 16 January 2001, at 9:04 a.m.
-
- In Response To:
(Richard Dunn)
-
- Actually LBJ recieved the
Silver Star ( the third highest combat award ), NOT the DSC - Both
Senators John Kerry and John McCain also recieved the Silver Star -
they at least deserved the award.
- You unfortunately have to
examine the circumstances and cannot assess the awardee by the
decorations he wears. The Brits. and the USMC have a
"tight" policy re. awards and decorations which works for
me. I can tell you that LBJ's award pissed off myself and lots of my
compadres in Vietnam in '67 and '68.
- Political awards of
decorations have been common - the Bronze Star was awarded to ALL
recipients of the Combat Infantry Badge after WWII ( "being in
ground combat is it's own reward " to quote an old USMC Gunny I
knew ), and the BS was given to most every staff (non combat) junior
officer in the Army in Vietnam who served a full tour and kept his
nose clean. Everyone I've met has one ! "Ticket punching"
was the term used then.
- Not trying to start a
contentious thread here, but the vast differences between the
services and eras with regard to combat decoration award criteria
has been a sore point with lots of combat vets such as myself. Many
folks get decorations they don't deserve, many do deserve them, and
many more don't get them who deserve them. Such is life -
"There it is - Don't mean nothin'" as we used to say !
-
- Re: Decorations
-
- Posted By: Richard Dunn <mailto:rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu?subject=Re:
Decorations>
Date: Tuesday, 16 January 2001, at 11:06 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re:
Decorations (Pete Chalmers)
-
- Pete
- You are of course right.
Would have been easy enough to check that fact before writing about
"facts." But hey a Silver Star is still a Silver Star!
Highest award my Dad got was an Air Medal and he was in four major
aerial invasions as a glider pilot in WW2 (He didn't go into Sicily
but trained the guys did) in the ETO. He saved a Regimental
commander's life and got shot a couple times (maybe I should say his
highest awarrd was the PH).
- In WW2 in the SWPA DFC's and
Air Medals were not handed out like they were in VN. A fighter pilot
returning from even a partial tour in VN would have half a dozen or
more DFC's and twice that many or more Air Medals. At least the ones
in the Tac Fighter Wing I was in did and it seemed typical. That
didn't necessarily apply to pilots of all types of aircraft,
however. I agree life is not fair but the Johnson case is
particularly egregious in my opinion.
- Also those WW2 guys were
overseas for years! Not 12 months broken up by a couple R&Rs.
- As for MacArthur at least he
eventually recognized that his air force was doing a heck of a job
for him.
-
- Rick Dunn
-
- Re: Decorations
-
- Posted By: Pete Chalmers
<mailto:pchalmers@carolina.rr.com?subject=Re: Decorations>
Date: Tuesday, 16 January 2001, at 12:41 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re:
Decorations (Richard Dunn)
-
- Richard;
- I can only speak from my
Naval Aviation experience, but you are overstating the case, at
least for carrier aviators.
- Air Medals were awarded
under the "Strike/Flight" system, and as individual
awards.
- The
"Strike/Flight" Air Medal was awarded on a
"points" or flight hours basis, for "Meritorious
achievement in aerial flight". You needed either 20 points or
50 flight hours, as follows:
- (a) 2 points: any combat
flight where hostile fire was recieved; always assumed over NVN or
Laos.
- (b) 1 point: any combat
flight over SVN where no hostile fire was observed.
- (c) 50 hours: "Combat
Support" flights such as those flown by the E-2, KA-3B tankers,
plane guard helos, COD.
- I personally believe that
this was the most "honest" decoration - if you flew 200
missions over the beach up north, you ended up with 20 Air Medals -
no ifs, ands, or buts.
- Individual single-mission
Air Medals were also awarded, but they were sometimes the result of
a recommendation for the DFC which was downgraded by ComPacFlt.
- The Distinguished Flying
Cross was awarded for individual acts of heroism in aerial flight,
but it was also ( and more commonly ) awarded for
"extraordinary achievement in aerial flight", which in
practice meant approximately 100 missions "Up North" or
the end of a cruise . If you had a particularly successful strike
mission ( knocked down the bridge, for example, or brought back a
severely damaged aircraft), a DFC was usually forthcoming. DFC's
were also awarded when a Silver Star recommendation was downgraded.
- Shooting down a MiG was an
automatic Silver Star - I know of one F-4 RIO on his first line
period of a WestPac cruise who had not yet flown sufficient missions
to qualify for his first Air Medal. His bird was vectored by Red
Crown to a bogie - the pilot acquired the MiG visually and fired one
Sidewinder when he had the tone. The RIO never saw the MiG nor
acquired it on his radar - though inexperienced, he was well-trained
and a "good guy" but his role on that mission was the
radios and the checklists. Under the Navy's "Crew Concept"
rule, both the pilot and he got the Silver Star. Those were the
rules - he didn't make them.
- When you look back at WW II,
it does seem unfair that those who participated often do not have
the decorations that those coming later received - many aces'
highest decoration was a single DFC. I would point out that glider
pilots were certainly one of those "unsung" groups of
pilots.
- But Vietnam aviators flew
many more missions than their WW II counterparts - perhaps not as
long but equally as dangerous.
- The closest thing to a
glider pilot in Vietnam was the Huey "slick" pilot who
carried troops/removed WIA's, often into very hot LZ's. I have a
friend who did this for 2 tours as an Army CWO - 400 plus missions
with over 100 "hot" LZ's and 3 times shot down - all
before he was 23 years old - he deserves every decoration, and he
has a bunch. I put those pilots and the infantry they carried at the
top of my "personal" respect list.
- This should really be over
on the "Chat" board, BTW, and this ends my contrubution to
the subject.
-
- Re: Re Straight
Story
-
- Posted By: James F. Lansdale
<mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Re Straight Story>
Date: Monday, 15 January 2001, at 7:57 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re Straight
Story (Richard Dunn)
-
- Rick
- I have absolutely no problems
with what you state. I know only too well about the facts concerning
"The Mission."
- I still stand by my original
statement, that Marty added very little to the original m/s as
presented to him by Fred SAITO except CAIDIN's inimitable style!
- I did not comment about other
CAIDIN works (which would have been off-topic), but most of your
observations are, in my opinion, right on target!
-
- FWIW
- Jim Lansdale
-
- Re: Re Straight Story
-
- Posted By: cruiserk <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Re Straight Story>
Date: Sunday, 14 January 2001, at 6:20 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re Straight
Story (Richard Dunn)
-
- Well written Rich,
Kind of almost makes me want to remove my retraction. I have read
and heard all of these stories. There is a lot of info that has been
following Caidan around about dramatization or fabrication of
history. I posted my reply to Jim based on the premise that I really
don't know the whole story, but it was stated pretty clear in the
Samurai book that I read that several stories written by Caidan have
not been true. I have heard about the Johnson incident, The Night
B-29 shoot down, and McGuire's last mission.
-
- Sincerely,
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: Lt.(jg) SASAI,
Jun'ichi
-
- Posted By: cruiserk <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Tuesday, 9 January 2001, at 11:05 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (Richard Dunn)
-
- Hello Richard I will try to
help,
From what I have read from Samurai and from what I have seen from
the movie Zero pilot some of this may be true.
While Sasai became a excellent Zero pilot and an excellent leader in
the beginning he was green. Sasai was trained in the art of aerial
combat by Sakai the two of them became a great team. Sasai became a
great ace and he owed his life and much of his development as a
great ace to Sakai. Sasai was a Naval Academy graduate and he
wrestled during his academy days so he had the right stuff to be a
leader and he was with the exception of his fighter combat skill
which was honed by Sakai. As a thanks to Sakai, Sasai gave Sakai his
belt buckle and the now famous qoute "a tiger roams over 1,000
miles for its prey." While I have much respect for Sasai his
leadership skills and his military training I would be inclined to
believe that some of this is possibly true and not fabricated
because he did lack fighter pilot skills in the begining that made
him some what green, but Sasai was a quick learner and thanks to the
Sakai - Sasai combination Sasai soon became known as the Richtofen
of Rabaul. Sasai and Sakai go hand in hand and we cannot
underestimate the importance of their team. For very shortly after
Sakai had to be hospitalized for injuries to his eye for his now
famous flight, Sasai met his demise at the hands of Marion Carl.
- (P.S. Of course I can't
prove any of this! Just my opinion.)
-
- Sincerely,
Cruiser K
-
- Re: Lt.(jg) SASAI,
Jun'ichi
-
- Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Wednesday, 24 January 2001, at 9:50 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (Richard Dunn)
-
- Rich
- Jun-Ichi Sasai would have
been considered not green after April 1942, This is around the time
that he really started racking up his aerial victories. So to answer
your question aprox. 3 months prior to this mission and 4 1/2 months
prior to his death he would not have been considered green. Jun-Ichi
Sasai's flying career was aprox. 9 months of total time between
completion of flight school and his death.
- Timeline for Sasai:
- 1939-Graduated 67th Naval
Academy Class
{Nov. 1941- Completed 35th Avaiation Student Course
{Dec. 10, 1941 - First Combat. Attack on Luzon. Returned to base
Engine problems.
{Feb. 3, 1942- First Aerial Combat Victory
{After April 1942- Stationed at Rabual Victories really start to
increase.
{July 11, 1942- The escort bomber, but intercept B-17
mission reported on this board by you.
{August 8, 1942- Sasi's mentor Sakai is hospitalized due to injuries
over
Guadalacanal.
{July 28, 1942 - Died in Combat over Guadalacanal. Assumed victim of
Marine Corps Ace Marion Carl.
- This information from the
book Japanese Naval Aces and fighter units of WWII, by Hata Izawa
and Gorham.
- Sakai in his book Samurai by
Caidin and Saito list Sasai as breaking out of his slump even later
May 12 of 1942 after
months of training from Sakai, Nishizawa and Ota. On this date he is
credited with 3 P-39 Airacobra victories and is said to have
officially made ace status.
- This was two months prior to
the mission you mentioned and 3 1/2 months prior to his death.
-
- Sincerely,
- Cruiser K
-
- Re: Lt.(jg) SASAI,
Jun'ichi
-
- Posted By: Richard Dunn <mailto:rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Thursday, 25 January 2001, at 1:34 p.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (Cruiser K)
-
- Cruiser K
- Should be August 26th for
his death. Marion Carl is pure speculation though he did make a
victory claim that date.
- At that time Zeros were
flying to guadalcanal with their long range tanks on. Tainan Ku
pilots were flying daily long missions. Even when they weren't over
Guadacanal they had often flown several hours and been turned back
by weather.
- My question was of course
rhetorical. Sasai, in accordance with JNAF practice, was made a
buntaicho when he clearly was not a well experienced leader. None
the less he lead combat missions while more experienced pilots were
condemned to fly wing and lead shotais because they were NCOs. He
was probably not confident and experienced enough to stand up to his
superiors and tell them 600 mile missions without dropping belly
tanks in combat were crazy.
-
- Rick Dunn
-
- Re: Lt.(jg) SASAI,
Jun'ichi
-
- Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re:
Lt.(jg) SASAI, Jun'ichi>
Date: Friday, 26 January 2001, at 12:52 a.m.
-
- In Response To: Re: Lt.(jg)
SASAI, Jun'ichi (Richard Dunn)
-
- Amen Rick,
I totally agree with you on that! The entire Guadalacanal campaign
was a most costly one for Japan, and maybe would have served them
better if they retreated and fell back to defend from a shorter
range. The attrition at the Canal cost Japan its other best Naval
pilots not lost at Midway.
The long range flights spending over and upwards to half a day 12
hours or more in the air! By the times the pilots did make contact
and combat with the enemy one would have to wonder about there
mental and physical state. Some may have even been asleep. Flying
with drop tanks into battle like you said is crazy, and