Nakajima Ki-84 Threads Part 2
 
Topics:
Ki-84 supplemental prototypes
Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45'  
Hayate walkaround now online
Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit  
Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions  
Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?  
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4) *PIC*
Ki-84 prop question
Ki-84 Light Brown Question
Ki-84 performance data
Correct or accurate?
Ki 84 Frank
Ki 84 color help (New)
Seeking info on Wakamatsu's Ki-84 (New)
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (New)
"BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) *PIC* (New)
71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (New)
Ki-84 supplemental prototypes
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@qwest.net>
Date: Thursday, 15 March 2001, at 9:10 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki84 increase prototype (Nelson R. S. Rapello)
 
You are correct that this aircraft carries the ventral rack for a drop tank. This being the case it would not have had wing mounted drop tanks unless later modified.
 
Page 57 of Aero Detail #24 shows a photo of this aircraft and the caption (in English) identifies it as production number 932, a second batch supplemental prototype.
 
The tricky part of identifying the supplemental prototypes is that the smaller detail items had practically no consistency. They had different headrests, engine exhaust layouts, main wheel hubs, wing or fuselage mounted drop tank racks, etc. Without seeing a clear image of the landing gear doors it is not possible to say for sure what type of gear mechanisms this aircraft had.
 
Correction...
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@qwest.net>
Date: Thursday, 15 March 2001, at 9:14 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 supplemental prototypes (Dan Salamone)
 
Looking at a photo of prototype #102 on page 54 of Aero Detail #24, this aircraft has both the ventral rack as well as the wing mounts for drop tanks and bombs.
 
Case in point that these prototypes had many variations in equipment.....
 
Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45'
 
Posted By: Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date: Thursday, 31 January 2002, at 3:43 p.m.
 
This is for Henry Sakaida, author of Osprey #13 'Japanese Army Air Force Aces 1937-45'.
 
Your book has a b/w photo at the top of page 23 showing a line up of at least five Franks in the back ground, behind a Manchoukuo Air Force Nate and bipe trainer. The Franks are in a dark color on their upper surfaces with white wing tips. Markings on their tails seem to be like those of the 104th Sentai with a colored upper fin tip and horizontal striping on some rudders.
 
A b/w photo of a natural metal finish 104th Sentai Frank is at the top of page 22. It has a dark (red?) fin tip. Looking closely I believe the main wing tip is also dark (red?).
 
There was a recent posting on the Want Ads page by D. Pluth regarding availability of Create 301 decals for 104th Sentai Franks. Your were credited as being in contact with the researcher in Japan who provided information for the new Frank decal sheet.
 
Can you make the following inquiries of your collaborator in Japan?
 
1. Does the photo on top of page 23 show HQ section Franks of the 104th Sentai? Does your contact have an idea how many planes were normally assigned to the HQ flights?
 
2. Were 104th Sentai Franks generally marked with the chutai color on the wingtips as on the fin tips? The Create 301 decal data sheet assigns white for HQ, yellow for 1st Chutai, red for 2nd Chutai and blue for 3rd Chutai.
 
Re: Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45'
 
Posted By: Henry Sakaida
Date: Friday, 1 February 2002, at 8:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45' (Ken Glass)
 
I will contact Mr. Osuo about your questions and when I hear from him, I will post it here.
 
Re: Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45'
 
Posted By: Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date: Saturday, 9 February 2002, at 4:11 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki.84 photo in Osprey 'JAAF Aces 1937-45' (Henry Sakaida)
 
I ordered the Create 301 decal sheets #48-CR-01 Shiden-Kai 343 Ku and #48-CR-02 Ki84-Kou 104 Sentai after seeing Dave Pluth's posting on the Want Ads portion of this site. I received them by airmail within 14 days, secure in a card board container. Both decals are printed by Microscale with a 2001 copyright. The color data sheets provided are the same as shown in the posting on the Want Ads site. Overall the presentation is similar to AeroMaster-Eaglestrike decals and makes a favorable impression.
 
Included in the Ki84 package is a 4" x 6" size scrap of paper. It is a b/w xerox copy of three partial view sketches of a Frank. All three views are repeated from the main color data sheet but two have been slightly altered. They appear to concern the same plane subject of the decal sheet from the HQ flight with white spinner, tail fin tip AND now with white wing tips, all shown in the same plan view. Small arrows on the sketch seem to indicate the white marking applied to both upper and lower surfaces of the wing tips. All script on the xerox scrap is in Japanese. I can't determine if the intent of the sketches is to indicate the same marking treatment for the wingtips of the three component chutais of this sentai.
 
The white wing tip detail is not shown on the main color profile data sheet that comes in the package. I presume that marking detail was determined after the color art work was done. Can you determine from your collaborator in Japan if the other chutai wing tips were similarly marked in their respective colors?
 
Hayate walkaround now online
 
Posted By: Mike Connelley <msc@ifa.hawaii.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 22 January 2002, at 3:43 p.m.
 
The ki84 Hayate (Frank) walkaround in now online. It seemed to work well when I tested it, so if there are any problem drop me an email. I must apologize for the pictures occasionally being grainy and low in contrast. Many pictures were dark and needed a lot of image processing to get to be what they are. These images are also large (1600x1200 pixels). I chose to display them full size to preserve the maximum detail and information. There are several walkaround sites out there, but the info they have on submitting pictures seems to frown upon large images. Being that these pictures are large, I think they will nicely complement the Aero-Detail book. The book has greater coverage of the cockpit and engine areas, and they could climb all over the plane, but thier photos are occasionally small. The 80 or so photos cover just about every thing I could get a shot of, from most any agle I could get the camera to. The museum also has a T-6 Texan parked out front. I thought it was cute and took a few shots, which are also posted.
 
Visiting the museum is a sobering and somber experience (anyone who has visited the Arizona Memorial knows the feeling). Photography is prohibited in the museum. I think this is because they don't want people carrying on and taking snap shots like it's Disney Land. To get these pictures, I had to ask for special permission from the manager (through my girlfriend since I don't speak Japanese...these shots are as much due to her efforts as to mine) to take pictures, and he let me near closing time when most other visitors had left. I felt it would have been impolite and inconsiderate to ask for too many favors, so I only asked to take pictures of the Hayate. They also have restored ki61-II Hien and a wrecked and corroded Zero on display. Photos of Zeros are abundant. I wasn't as personally interested in the Hien, it's paint was obviously inaccurate, and parts of the plane (canopy, turbocharger intake, drop tank, bomb) were obviously replicas. I am please to have had the chance to not only examine the only example for 4 hours, but to also take as many pictures as I wanted. I am also please to share these pictures with the public, so that anyone can benefit from this experience.
 
And, by the way, the URL is:
 
www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~msc/hayate.html
 
Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit
 
Posted By: Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date: Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 3:25 p.m.
 
I'm wondering if I should leave the "electrical box" on the left side of the cockpit floor off the model. Aero Detail states it's not original equipment, and sure enough on the pics of the cockpit the Mk III radio is missing. So this *could* be a U.S, radio?
 
In the FAQ I found a posting of Dan Salamone from 1999 in which he states that there's a box in the cockpit that doesn't belong there. I take it he meant this box. I seem to remember that there was someone els who wrote that it's open to debate if that box didn't belong there or not. I can't find that posting back, however.
 
Could you please give your opinion on this?
 
Ki-84 boxes
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date: Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 8:16 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit (Erik Bosch)
 
That old post was a goof of mine- the electrical box on the right side floor is OK, the Aero Detail photo on page 65 shows a post-capture radio box high on the right side of the cockpit. I don't have the Ki-84 kit handy right now to see if that detail was molded in or not.
 
Slight correction...
 
Posted By: Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date: Sunday, 6 January 2002, at 3:27 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84's "U.S, radio panel" in the cockpit (Erik Bosch)
 
The box is situated on the RIGHT side of the cockpit floor
 
Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
 
Posted By: Erik Bosch <mustang5@wish.net>
Date: Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 6:19 a.m.
 
I have the Hasegawa limited release with 47 Sentai markings:
 
1.Where can I find pictures on the Internet of a/c of this unit?
 
2.I believe I read these aircraft were deliverd in NMF to the units and camo'd there. So these a/c would show heavy chipping on the green, the grey, the white "flags" on the wing and the unit markings?
 
3.As I read on this site that the Hinomarus (and the leading edge stripe) were painted at the factory, these would have been primered and therefore wouldn't chip (as much)?
 
4. What technique can you recommend for the paint chipping?
 
Quite some questions..... Thanks for your time and effort!
 
Re: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date: Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 9:00 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions (Erik Bosch)
 
Click on the below link, and scroll down to the Ki-84. There are 3 pages of photos, some of them being repeated at least once.
 
Link: http://www.ijaafpics.com
 
Re: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date: Saturday, 5 January 2002, at 8:57 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions (Erik Bosch)
 
Below is a link to an article of a 47th Sentai Hayate I built a few years back. It has some tips on one (of many) paint chipping techniques.
 
IIRC, the Ki-84 was painted at the factory as there were a few schemes seen, one being a dark green over grey/green-grey and another that was brown over a similar color. I also have FS numbers for these schemes near the end of the article.
 
Some aircraft were heavily chipped, and others were not. Probably was purely how long each aircraft was in service and where they were, etc.
 
I will also attach a link to a separate message with a page of photos of actual Hayates. If you wish to own a nice, low cost reference I suggest Famous Aircraft of the World #19 as it has many photos and line drawings, etc.
 
Link: http://www.kitparade.com/features00/ki84ds_1.htm
 
Re: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions
 
Posted By: Erik <devilsled@earthlink.net>
Date: Thursday, 10 January 2002, at 3:08 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 I 47 Sentai questions (Dan Salamone)
 
Re: qustion #4
 
Im building the Ki-84 and tried the following paint chipping technique for the first time. It worked very well.
 
Paint a/c with metallizer. (I used testors).Buff lightly.
Seal with metallizer sealer.
 
I used IJA Green from Tamiya. First time using Acrylic paints and this might have contributed to the great look.
After airbrushing, wait 10-15 min. Take some tape and dab the areas you want the paint to flake off.Wrap tape into tight circle- you want to start with small sections of tape-its very effective.
 
Final sealing done by spraying with Future. Then wash with whatever method you prefer. This was my first attempt and I am very pleased with the results!
 
Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?
 
Posted By: Bennet <demodelbouwer@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 25 December 2001, at 11:25 p.m.
 
I am working on Hasegawa’s Ki-84. I want to make Corporal Takano’s airplane (Aeromaster Decals # 48-174, i.e. the a/c with the red “arrow”). Unfortunately the references I have (Aero Detail, and Schiffer) do not have picture(s) of this aircraft. Therefore I will appreciate it very much if somebody can help me with the following questions.
 
1) Are there any pictures available of is this specific a/c.
2) Is the a/c (heavily) weathered?
3) Can somebody scan the picture(s) and e-mail them to me?
 
Re: Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?
 
Posted By: Martin Ferkl
Date: Sunday, 30 December 2001, at 2:53 a.m.
 
In Response To: Takano’s Ki-84 pictures? (Bennet)
 
Hayate No. 21 from 57th Shinbu Tai flown by Corp. Takano (Kohno?) is depicted in Model Art 451. You can find some photos of Hayates used by this suicidal unit in this book.
 
Re: Takano’s Ki-84 pictures?
 
Posted By: John Dillon <john.dillon@wachovia.com>
Date: Monday, 31 December 2001, at 6:39 a.m.
 
In Response To: Takano’s Ki-84 pictures? (Bennet)
 
There is a picture of that aircraft in the FAOW on the Ki-84, but it is at a distance that doesn't reveal any particular detail. There are a series of photos of that unit (57th Shimbu-Tai) and the other planes show some weathering (a little chipping and some signs of paint fading) but nothing extreme.
 
One thing to note. I believe Aeromaster calls for the plane to be done in black, and there is a color profile in the FAOW in black as well (probably where Aeromaster got the idea). Based upon the photos of the other planes in the unit, I doubt very much whether this plane was actually black. To my eye, it is pretty clear that the other planes are green or brown--take your pick. I'd go with green since the majority of Ki-84's seemed to have received that color out of the factory.
 
64th Sentai Hayates... in Burma
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date: Sunday, 16 December 2001, at 1:36 a.m.
 
Awhile ago Joern Lecksheid posted a photo showing two Hayates belonging to the 64th Sentai in Burma. Below is a link to that post with text and the photo.
 
He asked (and I'm still wondering) if anyone may be able to date the photo, and tell what Chutai operated these aircraft?
 
Of note is that the aircraft to the left is NMF with splotches where the aircraft to the distant right seems to be camouflaged and have a light colored spinner. Also, the NMF aircraft has the single exhaust stub of the early supplemental prototypes but it is very hard to tell if it has the elongated muzzle covers on the cowl or a centerline drop tank pylon. Very interesting photo and circumstances!
 
Editors note: Picture at http://home.t-online.de/home/joern.leckscheid/Army/64SentaiHayate.jpg
 
HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4) *PIC*
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 7:13 a.m.
 
4. "Here's the plane that has taken me the longest time to confirm. It first appeared in Scale Modeller in the 70's but with a different scheme and the wrong pilot. Actually the pilot was Lt. Kurai Toshizo, No.1 Chutaicho, No. 1 Operational Training Unit (No.520 Temporary Intercept Sentai). He wore the same style kill markings on his sleeve.
 
I'm on to doing a painting of another plane!
 
Is there any in particular you'd like to see?"
 
Art: (c) 2001 by James Holloway
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/ki-84_1kfr_jh_d.jpg
 
Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
 
Posted By: James Holloway <bobwimple@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 5:21 p.m.
 
In Response To: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4) *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
 
Sirs, my thanks to Mr. Lansdale for posting these for me, I am very good at posting those little boxes with the X in them and little else. This Frank took me the longest to find, I thought I had the scheme since the early 80's and I want to thank George Elephtheriou and Joel Leckschied for providing final confirmation and true pilot's name. It has been said in other publications that this plane had a mottled camoflage, but it seems this unit had an uneven solid topcoat that was severly weathered and scraped, giving a mottle effect in some places.
 
Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 1:03 p.m.
 
In Response To: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (4) *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
 
Great job. Is this the Ki84 appeared on Superscale's Axis Aces of WWII, I am about the get the sheet soon though I am certain that kill markings are the same though that a/c did not have weathering as this one.
 
What do you think if I want something very difficult and selfish? How about Kobayashi's Ki100? (I have two Ki100 kits waiting :))) )
 
Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
 
Posted By: James Holloway <bobwimple@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 9 December 2001, at 6:02 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (Deniz Karacay)
 
Sir, This plane is another one I have been hunting for years. I was told this by Tokyo Historian Sakurai Takeda: The one photo that we've seen that shows him standing in front of the kill marks, the ki100, just out at time was considered top secret so was not allowed to be photograghed "in combat", so no other photo of his plane is KNOWN to exist.It does seem to explain why since he seemed to be so publicity minded that there aren't a lot of photos of this plane around.
 
Kobayashi's Ki100 *PIC*
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 December 2001, at 7:48 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (James Holloway)
 
Perhaps you have seen this already but anyway I post it.
 
From: FAOW No23 1990-7: Army Type 5 Fighter
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.umr.edu/~dkaracay/koki100.jpg
 
Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank
 
Posted By: James Holloway <bobwimple@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 December 2001, at 1:41 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: HOLLOWAY Holiday Painting: Special Ki-84 Frank (Deniz Karacay)
 
I've seen this plane, too and the markings were copied from Kobayashi's Ki61, to moke it more colourful. It's since been repainted in an accurate scheme,green over grey, and the markings of the 5th Sentai, I think.
 
Ki-84 prop question
 
Posted By: Erik
Date: Saturday, 2 February 2002, at 4:53 p.m.
 
Does anyone know if the prop blades on the Frank were made of wood or metal? Joe Baugher did an excellent write up on this aircraft, but no info on the blade material. I beg the gentelmen of this board for enlightenment!
 
Re: Ki-84 prop question
 
Posted By: Mike Connelley <msc@ifa.hawaii.edu>
Date: Saturday, 2 February 2002, at 11:32 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 prop question (Erik)
 
When I visited the plane, it looked like metal to me. I recall that there was a chip taken out of an edge of one of the blades. The nature of the chip looked like metal, not wood. I meant to take a photo of this blade, but I seem to have forgotten. Anyway, take a look.
 
Link: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~msc/hayate.html
 
Re: Ki-84 prop
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Sunday, 3 February 2002, at 6:11 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 prop question (Erik)
 
A lengthy and highly detailed notebook on the Ki 84 was captured at Mabalacat in the P.I. in 1945. It contains these comments in the propeller section:
 
"A PE 32 electrical type constant speed propeller is used on this airplane. The diameter of the propeller is 3.10 m and is a metal, four bladed propeller. Its weight is approximately 180 kg..."
 
Ki-84 Light Brown Question
 
Posted By: Christopher Dowsett <mainscreen@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Saturday, 6 April 2002, at 5:20 p.m.
 
I am currently working on the old Tamiya Nakajima Ki-84. I want to model the light brown aircraft flown by Capt Tadao Ikeda,
from the 51st Sentai based at Shimodate airfield in Feb 1945. The aircraft features on Page 55, plate 18 of the Osprey Aviation
Elite No5 ~ B-29 Hunters of the JAAF by Koji Takaki & Henry Sakaida. I am new to JAAF aircraft models. My questions are: What colour light
brown is it and what is the closest in the Gunze range or PMS colours? Is there any more information/pics about the pilot or this aircraft around?
 
Re: Ki-84 Light Brown Question
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@pcisys.net>
Date: Sunday, 7 April 2002, at 3:07 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 Light Brown Question (Christopher Dowsett)
 
Best bet is to check the Ki-84 FAQS. It is quite comprehensive as far as FS codes, etc. and timelines on when certain colors (may) have been used. Can't help though on Gunze matches, or info on the pilot. Hope this helps,
 
Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: Steve C <contella@wt.net>
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 12:38 p.m.
 
In Rene Francillon's book "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" he says that during the service trials the Ki-84 attained a top speed of 388 mph. I take this to mean that the prototype reached this speed. Also the prototype aircraft used 1,800 hp engines where as the production aircraft used 1,900 hp engines Homare [Ha-45] 11, and 12. It would seem logical that the higher horsepower engined aircraft were faster.
 
Does anyone have any other performance data for the Hayate? Specifically tests performed in Japan during the war. I know that the Clark Field aircraft was tested in 1946 and attained a higher speed (427 mph) using higher octane fuel and a higher blower (supercharger) setting.
 
Also I have the Meru Mechanic book on the Ki-84 mostly as a pictorial reference however is it mentioned that the Ki-84 used water injection? None of my other references mention water injection.
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data *PIC*
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, 23 April 2002, at 6:44 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
 
From FAOW No 20 Ki84 1971.
 
Certainly a match to Allied a/c under 20 000 ft. Unfortunately for Japanese, it was too little too late.
 
Editors note: Picture no longer available.
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 2:58 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
 
I have a copy of a translation of a captured document (hand written notes) of unknown reliability which indicates two maximum speeds for the Ki 84-1 (Light) and Ki 84-1 (Improved). The two speeds apparently relate to the Ha 45 rating of 2000 hp at 1500 meters and 1800hp at 6000 meters.
 
Ki 84-1 (Light) 664 kph (=412 mph) and 693 kph (=430 mph)
 
Ki 84-1 (Improved) 658 kph (=409 mph) and 688 kph (=427 mph).
 
Fully equiped wgt of Light = 3576 kg; Improved = 3858 kg
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: JC Butte <fluiddude@aol.com>
Date: Friday, 19 April 2002, at 2:39 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (richard dunn)
 
The US conducted post war flight testing of a KI 84 and achieved a top speed of 427 mph at 22,000' (posting from memory). This was in a superbly restored and maintained aircraft using top grade fuel. I doubt the Japanese were able to secure such performance under late war conditions. I have seen different figures for top speed at 20,000' (398 and 408 mph respectively, possibly reflecting the different engines used in this craft.
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Friday, 19 April 2002, at 3:04 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (JC Butte)
 
I only report what the document says.
 
During the war TAIC rated Ki 84's max speed at 422 mph.
 
There are many instances when Japanese "official" figures are less than US tests and observed combat performance.
 
One pilot's notes on the Ki 84 recommended always flying at overboost during combat. You wouldn't do that with an Allied fighter. What does that imply.
 
I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything other than this is an area worthy of inquiry and "received" history or the know "truth" on such matters may be something less than history or truth.
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 1:02 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
 
In August 1943 the second pre-production example was reported to have achieved 394 mph (643 kph) level speed at 21,800 ft (6,645 m) piloted by Tachikawa test pilot Funabishi. In diving trials the same aircraft achieved 496 mph (798 kph).
 
I guess this was in "clean" configuration.
 
In operations the type suffered from unreliability.
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: Steve C <contella@wt.net>
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 1:36 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (Nick Millman)
 
Is there a source for that report? Any additional info would be of great help.
 
Re: Ki-84 performance data
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 3:20 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (Steve C)
 
No, it comes from the development history of the type in Green & Swanborough, 1977, but unfortunately the original source is not cited.
 
It may be of interest to you that the SEAC Weekly Intelligence Summary 39 of 13th August 1944 first mentions the Ki-84, Summary 41 of 27th August 1944 gives tentative performance figures (TIR 338, Page 3) and Summary 49 of 22nd October 1944 reports, in TIR 390:
 
"sightings and combat photographs show that a new type of Jap (sic) fighter reported as having a 'tremendous speed' is in action in China".
 
A 7-point description is given, suggesting it is "Frank" but there is also speculation about Shiden and different points are noted. The report also mentions a crashed unidentified fighter in China with 2x20mm and 2x12.7mm armament.
 
Correct or accurate?
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Thursday, 18 April 2002, at 4:30 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 performance data (Nick Millman)
 
No need to put "(sic)" after "Jap" that's what they were called.
 
Somebody objected to "in-line engine". Maybe they were correct technically but they were historically inaccurate. "V" engines were routinely called in-line engines during ww2.
 
We've also discussed "F" and "FR" for the abbreviation for Hiko Sentai. The "F" is correct (and used in post-war Japanese official histories) but "FR" (from an old standard) was far more common in actual ww2 documents.
 
So, do you want to be correct or accurate? Not directed at you, Nick. Just a rheotorical question?
 
Ki 84 Frank
 
Posted By: sam crane <nettwerk@prodigy.net>
Date: Wednesday, 8 May 2002, at 6:37 p.m.
 
I am building a Hasagawa Ki84 Frank and just looking for some general info. Was the fighter pressurized ?
Why does the central part of the canopy have a lip that hangs over the edge of the fuselage ? Do the folwer flaps fit tight against the upper wing when they are in the closed position, or do they droop a little ? Do the wing cannons fit snuggly against the hole in the wing, or is there space ?
 
Re: Ki 84 Frank
 
Posted By: Mike Aldrich <VaYank5150@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 May 2002, at 9:36 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki 84 Frank (sam crane)
 
I found this webpage while surfing at some point. Excellent pictures of a rebuilt Ki-84. Maybe the pictures might answer some of your questions?
 
Editors note: Link to http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~msc/hayate.html
 
Ki 84 Frank
 
Posted By: Mike Connelley <msc@ifa.hawaii.edu>
Date: Thursday, 9 May 2002, at 5:02 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki 84 Frank (sam crane)
 
Yes, I think that's a very good site too :^). I was very fortunate to be able to take those pictures, and to be able to study the plane for 4 hours. To your questions:
1) I don't think the cockpit was pressurized. There is quite a large gap between the center canopy part and the aft part (which surprised my by being so small).
2) There didn't seem to much of a gap at all between the flaps and the upper wing, quite a good fit.
3) The cannons on the Hayate are fakes (just metal tubes really), and looked to small to me. I think Hayates had a gap between the wing and the cannon, but not this big. Overall, the Hayate is quite authentic, which is fortunate as it's the only one left.
 
Re: Ki 84 Frank
 
Posted By: sam crane <nettwerk@prodigy.net>
Date: Thursday, 9 May 2002, at 10:21 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki 84 Frank (Mike Connelley)
 
Great pictures ! Very helpful. The photo (Ki84.220) from the rear of the aircraft shows the canopy lip over the fuselage, and I can see the gap between the center and rear canopy. I agree, I cant imagine the cockpit being pressurized, but I thought they used this fighter to go after high altitude bombers. I wasn't sure if the Hasagawa model was in error. Also, the model has a space between the cannons and the wings, this must be accurate also. I noticed that with the fowler flaps closed, the tiny raised triangular "pins" recede into the wing. The flaps fit so well, you can barely see them. However, the bolts going through the flaps appear to be keeping the flaps level. Thanks guys !
 
looking for pic of area behind Ki-84 Seat.
 
Posted By: Kent <kinalk@earthlink.net>
Date: Saturday, 22 June 2002, at 7:14 a.m.
 
Can anybody offer help??
 
Re: looking for pic of area behind Ki-84 Seat.
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Saturday, 22 June 2002, at 9:26 a.m.
 
In Response To: looking for pic of area behind Ki-84 Seat. (Kent)
 
The best shots of this area can be found in MA #493 (Nakajima Army Type 4 Fighter "Hayata" Ki 84). This is a great publication if you're interested in the more technical aspects of the Ki-84. It mostly has photos of the one remaining Frank and technical drawings. Although, for much less money, I believe FAOW #19 (Army Type 4 Fighter "Hayata") is a better general reference for the modeler, and shows more of the Ki-84 in historic use. The FOAW only has one shot, the same one that appears in the MA.
 
I'll send you a few pics.
Ki 84 color help
 
Posted By: joe taylor <joe.taylor@bellhowell.com>
Date: Thursday, 19 September 2002, at 7:11 a.m.
 
Are the Gunze H62 green for top and H60 for bottom appropriate for late war home defense units?
 
Can you suggest better matches?
 
Any help would be appreciated. FAQ on this was not clear
 
Re: Ki 84 color help
 
Posted By: Ramesh Gill <ramesh_gill@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, 23 September 2002, at 10:12 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki 84 color help (joe taylor)
 
Just your luck...I've just completed an old 1/48 Arii Ki-84 in home defence markings too (520th Temporary Interception Sq). Generally, Ki-84 greens and greys were different from those of other aircraft, thus H60 and H62 may not ideal. But be prepared for some customised mixing if you really want more accurate colors for Ki-84s.
 
Using the old Model Art Ki-84 book's color chips as guide, you get the following paint mix ratios for Gunze paints:
 
Upper Surface Dark Green: H6 - 45% + H7 - 35% + H4 - 20%
Lower Surface Grey-Green: H1 - 70% + H2 - 15% + H4 - 5% +
 
H6 - 5% + H7 - 5%
 
I've not tried these Gunze mixes, so I can't say how accurately these match the chips. But I have found the Tamiya mixes that were also provided in that book to be totally wrong. Instead, I've managed to find my own mix ratios that match these chips almost perfectly. These are as follows:
 
Upper Green: X 9 (18 parts) + X 8 (15 parts) + X 5 (7 parts)
Lower Grey Green: XF-14 (40 parts) + X 2 (20 parts) +
 
X 8 (4 parts) + X 9 (1 part)
 
As for my latest Ki-84, I decided to try a slighly more aged look and so used 1 part less green for the upper camo (ie 18:15:6 instead of the 18:15:7). The resulting tone in a little bit more brown/drab and this is how the green paints actually tends to age [well, at least for Japanese WWII paints :)]. Plus, it gives a subtle variation between one Ki-84 kit and another when plaved side by side. HTH.
 
Seeking info on Wakamatsu's Ki-84
 
Posted By: Ramesh Gill <ramesh_gill@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 6 September 2002, at 5:53 p.m.
 
Is there any info available regarding the markings / paint-scheme used on Capt Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu's Ki-84 during his final days? Can it be safe to assume that he adapted the same tail and fuselage markings that he had on his camoflaged Ki-44?
 
Re: Seeking info on Wakamatsu's Ki-84
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Monday, 9 September 2002, at 2:30 p.m.
 
In Response To: Seeking info on Wakamatsu's Ki-84 (Ramesh Gill)
 
As far as I know no photographs of Wakamatsu's Ki-84 have yet been published. At the time of his death in December 1944 the 85th was operating a mixed complement of Ki-44 and Ki-84 aircraft (on 13 November 1944 it had reported an available strength of 17 Ki-44 and 10 Ki-84)
 
A colour photograph taken at Kimpo, Korea, following the surrender confirms that some Ki-84 aircraft had the unit's "half arrow" tail marking, in this case white with a matching white spinner and the number "68" on the lower rudder. The colour scheme is standard for the Ki-84 but the aircraft does not have the so-called "combat stripe".
 
Sgt Misao Okubo's Ki-84 of the 2nd Chutai in the autumn of 1944 has been depicted without any tail marking except the white character "Ku(ru)". This aircraft, otherwise in a standard Ki-84 scheme, had a narrow red fuselage stripe, edged in white, to the rear of the hinomaru. The spinner is depicted as the standard Ki-84 grey-green - which is unlikely. There are indications that other 85th Ki-84 aircraft continued to display individual Chinese characters above the "half arrow".
 
57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
 
Posted By: Wes Stachnick <beckwes@msn.com>
Date: Friday, 30 August 2002, at 9:48 a.m.
 
I am in the process of building the Hasagawa Ki-84 in 1/48th scale and have chosen a color scheme on Aeromaster sheet 48-174a"Special Attack Squadrons".My choice is the Hayate flown by Corp.Takano,57th Shibu-Tai,May 1945.This is the bird with the red and white "rounded arrowhead"on the cowling and the red and white strip running down the fuselage.The color for uppersurfaces call for "black"[per Aeromaster],although "a very dark brown was used by Shinbu-Tai squadrons".I do not have Model-Art no.451 IJAAF Special Attack Forces to compare photos or color chips.This "black-brown" does not seem to appear in Model-Art #395 or #329. What is the opinion of this wise and learned group about this 57th Hayate color? Any suggestions with FS standard or model paint mixes?Did this color exist at all? Once again ,thanks to all the terrific people in this wonderful group!
 
Here's the brown *PIC*
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 6:05 a.m.
 
In Response To: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Wes Stachnick)
 
Don't know what color your subject was painted, but here's the late war brown on Ki-44 & Ki-45 in the Phillipines in 1945
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.marksindex.com/japaneseaviation/temp/tojo_1.jpg
 
Re: Here's the brown
 
Posted By: Dave Pluth <dave@j-aircraft.com>
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 8:06 a.m.
 
In Response To: Here's the brown *PIC* (Pete Chalmers)
 
It kind of looks like an Dark Olive Drab color. Very interesting.
 
Re: Here's the brown
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 12:08 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Here's the brown (Dave Pluth)
 
No way to FS595 from a photo, but the the green mottles on the Ki-45, the color of the wash khakis, USMC cap, and skin tones on the Navy officer, and the red and yellow tones, make me pretty certain that this is in fact the brown found on some artifacts discussed by Messrs. LANSDALE and OWAKI a few years back, which JL characterized as " between FS 30118 and FS 20095 ( closer to FS 20095 ) in a post dated 8 JAN 99 to this board, and quite possibly the "standard" late war brown.
 
The edges of the print made I'm sure from a Kodachrome ( Boy, wouldn't we like to see the rest of those slides !!! ) are distorted to blue, but having worn both the khakis and the cap ( not togethor ) and spent quite some time in the Phillipines in 1967-67, the colors look pretty good to me.
 
The olive tinge is certainly evident in the highlighted areas, but not in the shadows.
 
What is also interesting are the black undersides on the mottled Ki-45 - evident if you enhance and lighten the photo via Photoshop or PSP7.
 
Re: Here's the brown
 
Posted By: William Knoth <baronred4@cs.com>
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 7:41 a.m.
 
In Response To: Here's the brown *PIC* (Pete Chalmers)
 
Looks like it's got green in it!
 
Re: Here's the brown
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 1:33 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Here's the brown (William Knoth)
 
Check the FAQs. I remember that a few years ago there was a great debate going on this site about that photo. If I recall correctly, I don't think that we want to open that can of worms again.
 
In my opinion, this belongs in the same group as the blue Oscars and golden Claudes - excellent discussion but unable to be proven either way beyond a shadow of doubt.
 
And your point is ?
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 3:22 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Here's the brown (Grant Goodale)
 
With the "Blue Oscar" and the "Gold Claude", there are neither good ( or any) photographs nor artifacts.
 
The brown is confirmed by artifacts - we can argue about the precise shade in this photo, but not about the existance of the brown.
 
Re: And your point is ?
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Sunday, 1 September 2002, at 12:21 a.m.
 
In Response To: And your point is ? (Pete Chalmers)
 
only Jim Lansdale would be able to confirm whether Don Thorpe had a blue artifact associated with a Ki-100 - or Oscar - or any other type - by date, location and serial number. I for one would be interested in the provenance of Don's blue Ki-100.
 
The blue scheme, if it existed (and I believe it did) cannot really be compared with the late war browns - which appear to be mass production factory schemes. I'm sure I speak for other "blue believers" when I acknowledge these were rarities and much less likely to survive in artifacts or photographs. There are however a number of colour photographs which "appear" to show "blue" JAAF aircraft including a Helen and a Sonia.
 
Also if you will forgive a tongue in cheek comment - there seems to have been no shortage of beautiful blue paint to obscure the hinomaru on these aircraft at this recently captured airfield! :-)
 
In the meantime I'll keep an open mind about the colour(s) of that part of the iceberg we can't (yet) see!!!
 
Re: And your point is ?
 
Posted By: Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy <FraudFree947356@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 2 September 2002, at 10:05 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: And your point is ? (Nick Millman)
 
I really don't know what to think of this subject, but I can tell you all this:
 
My Ki-43 Oscar relic - battered and bruised - shows DEFINITE blue under the mottled green. It was NOT always this way. It was green, but when I washed the dirt off, some of the green paint seems to have broken down and left the blue portion of it. It remains gradual from metal to blue to green, and I witnessed the change in my own kitchen.
 
So, knowing that it would be impossible to mottle blue Aotake first and green precisely over that, I am all but certain the deep beautiful blue paint remnant was merely a component of the green paint.
 
As I recall, Hiroyuki Takeuchi said wreckage of a Ki-45 in Japan was recently recovered and found to have a blue mottled finish. I wonder if the age of the paint and so on may have been behind this blue as was the case with my relic.
 
 
Is this to say this blue paint on the aircraft of the day was all worn-out green paint? Not necessarily.
 
Is this to say blue did not exist? Not necessarily.
 
Is this to say we have insufficient data - either way - to make a convincing case about what was painted vs. what was witnessed? I think so.
If you want to (accurately) paint your model blue, I can easily imagine a well-worn formerly green aircraft looking that way based on my relic's paint breaking down as it has. I could easily imagine a mottled (where the mottles were quickly sprayed green X marks over a sandy color as from the Hayabusa which my relic came) scheme with green mottles with blue edges.
 
As a modeler at heart, I can't completely accept or reject blue Hayabusas, Lilac Rufes, or gold Claudes. To me, they are legends based on SOMETHING. We tend to believe the lilac Rufe legend was actually the Hairyokushoku finish wearing through and partially revealing the primer. We tend to think the gold Claude was true based on the claims of eyewitnesses (did ANY eyewitnesses say they were NOT gold?). I think we should be prepared to believe the blue could have been in existence - and for many different reasons - not just OOB blue, and until we can KNOW the paint was BLUE, we can't necessarily swear it did or didn't exist.
 
Re: And your point is ?
 
Posted By: Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy <FraudFree947356@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 2 September 2002, at 2:37 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: And your point is ? (Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy)
 
Oh yes... I forgot to add to what I previously posted:
 
 
As a modeler at heart, I can't completely accept or reject blue Hayabusas, Lilac Rufes, or gold Claudes. To me, they are legends based on SOMETHING. We tend to believe the lilac Rufe legend was actually the Hairyokushoku finish wearing through and partially revealing the primer. We tend to think the gold Claude was true based on the claims of eyewitnesses (did ANY eyewitnesses say they were NOT gold?). I think we should be prepared to believe the blue could have been in existence - and for many different reasons - not just OOB blue, and until we can KNOW the paint was BLUE, we can't necessarily swear it did or didn't exist.
 
I sure am not trying to stir things up, so let me clarify...
I don't think we had any lilac Rufes at all, anywhere. I believe it is a legend, based on something someone saw, that was not properly substantiated or supported.
 
I am not sure about gold Claudes, but I see NO evidence PROVING they were NOT gold - and some questionable evidence stating (but not proving) they were. But at this point, I am shifting away from the belief I have had in the past of the gold Claude. I am wondering if it was sort of like those chemically stained windows that have a sheen that some folks see their favorite idol imprinted in the reflection - and when one person sees it and proclaims it, others see a resemblance, and the next thing you know, you have a following.
 
About blue Hayabusas and GoShikiSens, I think it's definitely possible, but don't know whether they were PAINTED blue or faded from green - or if there's a good answer for sure or not. Sure, blue is neat - but there were more KNOWN schemes than I can possibly model.
 
But if you want to paint a model blue or gold or purple, do it! My opinions are mine, and they are certainly not worth more than anyone else's. Let's face it - there is too little proof one way or another for anyone to call the model police and have you arrested on a 1369 because you didn't have the LATEST book on your favorite subject.
 
What color was the cinder-block wall (or door or floor tile?) in your first-grade classroom? What color do you suppose it is now (provided it hasn't been reworked)? If you had an FS-595 then and now, would your readings be the same? Is it important enough to lose good modeling time over? Just build it. You'll figure out a color before you mix the paint!
 
Re: Kawanishi green...
 
Posted By: David Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, 2 September 2002, at 10:35 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: And your point is ? (Rob Graham - The ReiShikiSenGuy)
 
In 1975, I worked on that Nimitz Museum N1K1 "Kyofu" [Rex]...and one of my lasting impressions about its color was a blue color which when rubbed with added 'spit' it turned Kawanishi green.
 
Digital Laser Photo Spectrometer Analysis
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers
Date: Sunday, 1 September 2002, at 6:06 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: And your point is ? (Nick Millman)
 
Indicates that the blue was US Insignia Blue, batch 44-2724, from the paint locker of the USS Suwanee.
 
Re: The Point of Don THORPE's Work
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 1 September 2002, at 5:15 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: And your point is ? (Nick Millman)
 
You wrote, "only Jim Lansdale would be able to confirm whether Don Thorpe had a blue artifact associated with a Ki-100 - or Oscar - or any other type - by date, location and serial number. I for one would be interested in the provenance of Don's blue Ki-100."
 
Don THORPE's brilliance and recognized pioneering efforts, as well as contributions to the field of Japanese aircraft colors, centered on his systematic analysis of the Charles DARBY (as well as others') collection/s of artifacts and relics.
 
To this day, his color comparisons of those relics to the Munsell standard of colors remain dead-on! He also obtained a partial, but original set of color chips from the "Official Japanese Aircraft Color Standards: February 1945". Today, we have only added to and validated Don's body of knowledge in order to broaden and strengthened the foundation of his color data base.
 
Having said the previous, I must also be candid (as Don has been), without apology, by stating the following:
 
During his research, Don THORPE plowed new furrows, but relied greatly on the research of others (AKIMOTO-san, HASHIMOTO-san, Dick BUESCHEL, Witold LISS, etc). In the end, Don was also forced to "borrow" the interpretaions of color schemes found in art renderings within the Japanese periodicals of the time.
 
While Don had actual color samples of relics which he methodically compared to the Munsell standards, his profiles were intended as a catalogue of the art work of others. Hence, while camouflage patterns were accurate when compared to monochrome photos, the true colors on the aircraft were indeterminate.
 
There was no substantive reference/documentaion for the "blue" Ki-100 or the "blue" Ki-43, other than the art of the Japanese researchers or vague recollections.
 
Wartime intelligence and action reports of "blue" Japanese aircraft are available; fragments of "blue" painted Japanese aircraft relics exist; connecting the specific "blue" to a specific aircraft's overall color has not been accomplished .... yet!(;>)
 
Photo:Kokufan - July, 1972 n/t *No Text*
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers
Date: Saturday, 31 August 2002, at 6:08 a.m.
 
In Response To: Here's the brown *PIC* (Pete Chalmers)
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Friday, 30 August 2002, at 2:17 p.m.
 
In Response To: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Wes Stachnick)
 
There is much speculation as to the color of this Frank. No matter the "authority" it is all still just speculation. Some art depicts it as black, such as MA#329, p 8. But IMHO, the most likely color and your safest bet is "black-green" (see color chip MA#329, p 28, 4th chip down). Nohara portrays it as a black-green on the fold-out art of MA#451.
 
An example of the "black-brown" color is said to be the very top color chip in MA#329, p 29.
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
 
Posted By: John Dillon <john.dillon@wachovia.com>
Date: Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 6:54 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Don Marsh)
 
The only source I have is the section on the 57th Shinbu-Tai in the FAOW on the Ki-84, but it seems to me to be very unlikely that the plane was "pure" black. While the photos from that source only show the plane in question at a distance, there are some up close shots of other Hayates in the unit.
 
Those photos reveal the type of wear associated with planes that have been painted some time ago (chipping, stains & fading). I'll go out on a limb and say that none of the other planes shown up close are painted black. That would make it very unusual indeed for this particular bird to be all black--though certainly not impossible.
 
Does anyone have any idea where the notion that this plane is black came from? I'm assuming it is from Japanese sources since all the profiles of it that I'm aware of have been done in black. Was there some research done to justify this scheme or is this simply a case of something being "true by repetition?"
 
As for me, I put the black Ki-84 in the same class as the mauve Rufe until some solid evidence comes along to the contrary.
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 9:08 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (John Dillon)
 
I concur with all your observations regarding these a/c.
 
As for your question, "Does anyone have any idea where the notion that this plane is black came from?" To the best of my knowledge, it's another case of a "follow the leader" representation. I.e. the artist first representing this a/c thought it looked black and portrayed it that way. Subsequent artists merely immitated this original speculation assuming it was correct. (Although Nohara san's more recent art now shows this a/c in a dark green). I can't asy for sure, but I believe that the first color representations of this a/c were by the excellent aviation artist I. Hasegawa in the late 1980's.
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
 
Posted By: Bob T. <bobki100@webtv.net>
Date: Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 2:40 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Don Marsh)
 
Well, I've got the foldout from MM451 and it sures looks black- brown to me and not like black-green! I say to do it any way you want and forget the color police!
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ?
 
Posted By: Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 6:52 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Bob T.)
 
Is there a close FS 595b color equivalent for the black-brown used in the Model Art #451 fold out color profile?
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color?
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 10:19 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai black-brown color ? (Bob T.)
 
I don't care what color anyone paints anything... ever! People can believe whatever they want. As an artist I love freedom, fantasy and whimsy. But as a researcher I'm more interested in establishing historic fact as accurately as possible. As an artist and researcher I never take another artist's speculation and representation as fact. Only photography. While this can be frustrating and quite limiting, it's the only factual record we have. And there is already enough erroneous speculation out there as it is.
 
Certainly, people build for many different reasons. But at the bottom of it all, it's usually for the pleasure it brings. For some, the pleasure comes from the use of their hands. For others, it may be just a pastime. But for other's still, the pleasure comes from creating as accurate a representation of history as possible (at least in military building). Often, for these people, the digging for facts, the learning, and the process of discovery are as important as the building itself. No matter one's reason for building, there is no right or wrong. However, when a question is posed by one of our fellow builders sincerely seeking historic accuracy, it would be irresponsible of any honest researcher to give a non reply by saying, "make it any color you like."
 
May everyone here derive great pleasure and fulfillment from this wonderful hobby, for whatever reason they have to do so.
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color?
 
Posted By: Bob T. <bobki100@webtv.net>
Date: Wednesday, 4 September 2002, at 10:59 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color? (Don Marsh)
 
Sorry but this sounds like AMS to me.What are you supposed to do when one reference says the color is black, another black-green and yet another black-brown.The war's been over 57 years and chances are we'll never know for sure the correct color. Also,when I say 'paint it anyway you want',that only applies to a/c whose color schemes are in question,not to known schemes.I certainly would not paint a Zero pink.
 
Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color?
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Thursday, 5 September 2002, at 12:46 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 57th Shinbu-Tai color? (Bob T.)
 
I appreciate your response and understand your position. And you're right, if the answer isn't clear, using an educated guess and painting it as you think looks neat is about all one can do. It's that or stop building. Not a satisfactory response to my way of thinking.
 
You are also right that there has been a lot of "water under the bridge." But as frustrating as the limitations are in this field, all is not lost. Despite the passing of time, we know more about the facts today than we did 30 years ago when we were closeer to the events. With more unbiased reserchers; technical advancments; documents coming to light, such as: new photos from private and family collections, relics surfacing from many sources, decalssified documents, intelligence information being discovered in files not looked at in 57 to 51 years; doors opening between east and west, etc., much is being learned. In the past, much speculation was accepted as fact and erroeous information was often merely copied and repeated. But there is a good deal of genuine and original research taking place today. Many dedicated researchers are meticulously putting the pieces togther everyday (many of the best are regulars here at J-a/c dot com). And while I'm sure that there is much that we will never know, there is still much that we can and will learn.
 
If no clear information exists, I'm with with you... make a genuine effort to get it right and that's all one can do. And who's to say you're wrong.
 
I wish you (and all builders) as much joy in building as I find in the quest for answers to some of these mysteries.
 
"BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) *PIC*
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 10:06 a.m.
 
last year during our visit to the Harada collection in lake Kawaguchiko, we noticed a piece of a rudder of a Hayate hunging about 2.5 meters from the ground, inside a paint frame covered/protected with some plastic. I took about 10 photos but the light conditions are very bad in there so only one photo turned out relatively good.
This year we visited the place again. This time we brought the FS deck with us and more dedicated than before took many more photos which came out much much better.
Only that...from the printed photos the rudder looks like it has changed color! Compare its color with the chips of pages 48 and 49 of the FS deck. We have PROOF regarding the usage of blue color on Japanese planes...or maybe not. The rudder is green. I repeat, Green.
So much regarding proof...or the luck of it...or the influence of the Gobi desert sand color to the paint of Abyssinian planes...
 
Editors note: Picture at http://home.t-online.de/home/joern.leckscheid/HayateRudder.jpg
 
Re: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?)
 
Posted By: JCC <modelstories@free.fr>
Date: Tuesday, 27 August 2002, at 1:35 a.m.
 
In Response To: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) *PIC* (Elephtheriou George)
 
Here in France we have a paint for the Mirage and Rafale which looks grey by cloudy weather and blue on sunny days...maybe it is the same effect here.
 
A similar occurrence happened to me at Cosford : photographed from away the Fi 156 looked Green, from up close with flash-light it turned out grey
 
Re: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?)
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 10:23 a.m.
 
In Response To: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) *PIC* (Elephtheriou George)
 
Looks like a folded Union Jack to me.
 
Stained with tears.
 
Re: Green Frank Tail! *PIC*
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 7:22 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?) (Nick Millman)
 
Here is a better photo taken by George of the HARADA-san Ki-84 Frank rudder from No.102 F.
 
Credit: (c) Elephtheriou George via J-A Dot Com
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.j-aircraft.com/jiml/ki-84_102fr_color.jpg
 
Re: "BLUE" Hayate-PROOF (?):Green!
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 22 August 2002, at 9:26 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Green Frank Tail! *PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
 
that was the best photo I was able to take during our last year's visit.
It wasn't posted in any board but was put up in the walkaround section for a while.
 
71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire
 
Posted By: Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson28@ntlworld.com>
Date: Friday, 26 July 2002, at 6:39 a.m.
 
Can anyone help me with some confusion over the role of a 71st Sentai Ki-84 in the air battle which resulted in the loss of Major McGuire over Negros Island in 1945?
 
There is a very interesting account of the battle in the John Stanaway Osprey book on P-38 aces. The book describes McGuires flight of four aircraft taking on a Ki-43 of the 54th Sentai flown by WO Sugimoto, and a Ki-84 from the 71st Sentai flown by Sgt Fukuda joining in after battle commenced. Stanaway suggests the Ki-84 (Fukuda)shot down Maj. Rittmayer, but was itself then forced down and the pilot shot by Filipino partisans. Unfortunately the names of sugimoto and Fukuda seem to get muddled in the text, so I am not sure if I have got it right, and am unclear if either Japanese aircraft or pilots survived?
 
Re: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire
 
Posted By: David Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 26 July 2002, at 8:08 a.m.
 
In Response To: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (Andrew Johnson)
 
The late Carroll Anderson, pilot 433rd FS, 475th FG, and Sam Tagaya worked together many years ago on this topic. All others who quote the Ki-43 and Ki-84 story reference this source [Air Force magazine?]. The Ki-84 pilot survived and added a sidebar to the article, and the Ki-43 pilot was killed on the ground that day. I do not have that file in front of me right now....so I can not cite the source of the article.
 
Sgt. FUKUDA, Mizunori (after the war) *PIC*
 
Posted By: UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Friday, 26 July 2002, at 10:43 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (David Aiken)
 
I eventually found the pics of Fukuda and Sugimoto in a book.
According to the book, that was Fukuda's first aerial victory during the war. He was born in Kagoshima Prefecture in 1924.
He says, "I saw the red or purple muffler of the pilot."
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.imira.ne.jp/album/photo.asp?PID=266036&ImgType=0
 
WO SUGIMOTO, Akira in 1943 *PIC*
 
Posted By: UCHIDA, Katsuhiro <2000GT-B@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Friday, 26 July 2002, at 10:47 a.m.
 
In Response To: Sgt. FUKUDA, Mizunori (after the war) *PIC* (UCHIDA, Katsuhiro)
 
He was shot dead on the ground after he made a forced-landing on Jan. 7, 1945.
 
Source: "Taiheiyo Sendo Koku Shiwa Vol. 1" by Dr. HATA, Ikuhiko (1995 Chuo Koron)
 
Editors note: Picture at http://www.imira.ne.jp/album/photo.asp?PID=266037&ImgType=0
 
Re: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire
 
Posted By: Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson28@ntlworld.com>
Date: Saturday, 27 July 2002, at 2:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: 71st Sentai Ki-84 and the loss of Maj. McGuire (David Aiken)
 
Did you read the account by Thropp found on, I think, the 5th Air force website?
 
He believed Sugimoto had pulled enough lead, and was close enough to have shot McGuire down (rather than McGuire simply stalling out).
 
I have made a model of the Ki-84 of Fukuda in the markings of the 71st Sentai. Well, of course not sure really what it looked like, but I did put the 71st Sentai marking on the tail.
Return to Army Message Board