Nakajima Ki-84 Threads
 
Topics:
KI-84 Kit Quality
Ki-84 - is there a decent 1/72nd scale kit?
102 Sentai Markings
Ki-84 interior color
Ki-84-I two seat trainer
Even more Ki-84 info needed
Clear Frank?
Ki-84 seatbelts & harness
Ki-84 cockpit
Ki84 prop color again
Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
Olive Drab, recommended
Ki-84: color for "prop green"
Ki-84 butterfly flaps
Ki-84 info needed
Ki-84 Frank Interior Color
Ki 84 Colours.
ki-84 performance...so which is it? (New)
Ki-84 color for 57 Shinbu-Tai (New)
Ki84 increase prototype (New)
 
KI-84 Kit Quality
 
Posted By: Wallace Brueshaber <wbrueshaber@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 27 December 2000, at 9:20 a.m.
 
I noticed that there are three companies that produce 1/32 scale KI-84 kits. Their names are Tomy, Doyusha, and Swallow. I am not familiar with any of these companies but I am very interested in purchasing one or two KI-84 kits in the 1/32 scale. Does anyone know where I can find these kits? Are they even made anymore? If you have any information please let me know.
 
Re: KI-84 Kit Quality
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, 27 December 2000, at 11:31 a.m.
 
In Response To: KI-84 Kit Quality (Wallace Brueshaber)
 
I have the original Tomy Ki-84. It is not bad but not up to the Tamigawa standards of today. I have not checked it for accuracy and I do not intend to do so. My kit is approximately 25 years old. The Doyusha kit is simply a re-issue of the old Tomy kit. I believe that Doyusha bought out the Tomy kit line. I also suspect that the Swallow kit is probably the old Tomy as well.
 
Re: Thank you again.
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Wednesday, 27 December 2000, at 10:02 p.m.
 
In Response To: Thank you again. (Wallace Brueshaber)
 
They are basically same kits but have some differences;
Tomy : The original kit is designed to be motorized with a set of non-scale landing gear and propeller to taxi the model on the floor.
Swallow : Reissue of the above without the motorization parts. Comes with photoetched cockpit parts.
Doyusha : Currently available. Basically the Swallow kit but without the photoetched parts. Comes with Cartgraph decals.
 
Ki-84 - is there a decent 1/72nd scale kit?
 
Posted By: Michael Kendix <mkendix@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, 25 December 2000, at 6:48 p.m.
 
I have the 1/72nd scale Ki-84 kit #02504. It has a lot of raised panel lines. Is there a better kit with engraved panel lines?
 
Re: Ki-84 - is there a decent 1/72nd scale kit?
 
Posted By: Mike Driskill <kyofu@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 1 January 2001, at 6:32 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 - is there a decent 1/72nd scale kit? (Michael Kendix)
 
The Hasegawa kit is the best in 1/72 by far. It was released at the same time as their Ki-43-II Oscar, and I believe these were their last kits with raised panel lines.
On the plus side, it is very accurate, fits very well, and the interior detail is OK. The wheel wells on these two kits in particular are as convincing as anything Hasey has ever done in 1/72.
There is also a 1/72 kit by Revell. Pretty hot stuff for the mid 60's when it came out, but don't bother finding one unless you are a collector.
 
Re: Ki-84 - is there a decent 1/72nd scale kit?
 
Posted By: Richard Campbell <muppyt@ihug.co.nz>
Date: Tuesday, 26 December 2000, at 12:50 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 - is there a decent 1/72nd scale kit? (Michael Kendix)
 
At this stage, the Hasegawa Ki-84 is the only game in town.
Although it has raised panel lines (and some countersunk)
it is still pretty accurate and with a little effort can be made into a really nice model.
Tamiya also manufactured a 1/72 Ki-84 (late 60's) but it is hard to find, expensive when you do find one, and if you think the panel detail is excessive on the Hasegawa offering the Tamiya example is frightening !
True Details market a very reasonably priced cockpit resin set for the Hasegawa kit to enhance it further.
There are at least three decal sets available for the 'Frank' as well as the variants offered on the Aeromaster 'Special Attack Squadrons' sheet so one is not limited for choice of subject.
 
102 Sentai Markings
 
Posted By: Edward Russell <e.russell@southernhealth.org.au>
Date: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 3:24 p.m.
 
There is a photo in the Osprey JAAF Aces book purporting to show Ki-84s of the 102 Sentai on the runway in Japan. Would anyone care to comment on the colour of the Sentai markings and any other information helpful in making a 102 Sentai model. Interestingly, the same photo appears in the RJ Francillon book captioned as being the 52 Sentai. Any help most appreciated.
 
Re: 102 Sentai Markings
 
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Sunday, 3 December 2000, at 10:49 p.m.
 
In Response To: 102 Sentai Markings (Edward Russell)
 
The 102 FR was established 11-10-44 at Kameyama, Shimae and their area of operations was Okinawa and Japan. The most of the 102 FR was moved to the 103 FR to fill it out. The 102 was disbanded 7-30 45.
The photo you allude to is the most reproduced of this marking and may in fact be the only photo extant. This same photo may be found:
pg 68, JAAF Aces 1937-45, Sakaida.
pg 230, Japanese Aircraft, Francillon.
pg 42, FAoW #19.
pg 54, Japanese Aircraft Code Names & Designations, Mikesh.
pg 5, Profile Punlications #70, Francillon. ...etc..
There is still much conjecture over this particular marking. Originally thought to be the insignia of the 52 FR (Thorpe, Francillon, et al), it is now believed to be the marking of the 102 FR (Sakaida, FAoW, et al). It may turn out to be yet again some other unit, but the 102 is, at this time, the safest educated guess and most likely correct. I have completed the art for this marking for my own yet-to-be-published book and have it listed as a 102 FR marking.
The color of this marking is also speculative, as is the case with nearly all b&w photographs. Most often, the experts have called it yellow, and this is how it is usually represented by artists (this could be just because it looks more colorful). There is no way to say for sure if this tail code was painted in yellow (3rd Chutai) or white (1st Chutai).
Personally, I believe it to be white. I have examined the same photo in the five publications listed above to see if there is any subtle difference due to printing, and have detected none. If it's white then it is very dingy; but then look at the condition of the a/c! I detect no difference in shade, tone or coloration in comparison to the white surround of the Hinomaru, which is also quite dingy. The yellow IFF on the leading edge of the wing is very bright and looks almost the same shade as the tail marking, but then it is reflecting direct sun light, while the Hinomaru's surround and tail marking are in shadow. Also, note the bright spinner on the a/c in the background (just in front of the vertical stabilizer of the a/c in the foreground); this sappears to me almost certainly white, and the marking would most likely be in the same color... I'd make it a 1st Chutai marking, but if you were to find the yellow more appealing on your model I'd go with that. No one can prove you wrong.
The a/c would be black-green, there is no combat band around the fuselage and the spinner is painted the Chutai color. Also note that the upper third of the landing gear covers are painted a dark color, most probably red. The finish on this bird is badly weathered getting progressively worse toward the rear area of the fuselage which is showing bare metal. Notice how the lower third of the rudder, which was metal, is virtually bare while the upper two thirds, which were fabric, have retained their color.
 
Ki-84 interior color
 
Posted By: Rob Killick <rkillick@mb.sympatico.ca>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2000, at 12:27 p.m.
 
I'll try and make this as short as possible .
I am starting to build Hasegawa's 1/48 Ki-84 . What color should I paint the cockpit interior ?
 
Re: Ki-84 interior color
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@uswest.net>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2000, at 12:38 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 interior color (Rob Killick)
 
Great kit, isn't it? :-) Basically, it is helpful if you know a rough idea of when the aircraft you are building was built during the war. I have included the link to the FAQ section on Ki-84 colors. If you have any references, it may have a rough date of when the photo was taken, but as a very general rule of thumb:
1. Early aircraft were aotake inside
2. Later war aircraft may have had an overall green similar to external camouflage
3. Very late war aircraft had natural metal cockpits
The FAQ's go into it with more detail- hope this helps you!
 
Ki-84-I two seat trainer
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Sunday, 8 October 2000, at 3:44 a.m.
 
Konnichi wa again,
combinning information from FAOW 19, "Emblems of the Rising Sun" and MA 493, I could find only one photo of the two seat Ki-84, belonging to the 10th Rensei Hikotai (training unit). That unit used the round/slash red unit marking from 30/11/1944 until ?/5/1945. Then changed to the white fancy 10 marking because of difficulty with identification with the previous marking. But at the end of the war, planes carrying both markings were found.
"Generally" that unit used 3 ways of painting their planes. 1)N/M/F, 2) dark or black Green, 3) dark or other kind of Brown.
The number of the plane was painted either at the side (both sides?) of the engine cowling or just between the fuselage Hinomaru and the tail. The number was white (on the camouflaged) planes and red on the N/M/F planes.
Coming back to the photo of the two seat version, nothing is writen in both FAOW and MA books about the overall painting of the plane, nothing is writen about the tail's marking and only in the MA book it is writen that the number "12" at the side of the cowling is yellow (I have no idea how he came up with that) and that 10 two-seat planes were operated by the 10 Rensei Hikotai.
Also, in the Francillon book it is writen that the two-seat version was field made and that just a jump seat was installed behind the pilot/pupil, without dual control instruments.
Any more ideas or photos about the overall color of the "12" of the 10th? Or the tail's marking? Or anyway any other photo of the two-seat version? Or, finally, how did the interiour of the teacher's section was like?
Domo
 
Even more Ki-84 info needed
 
Posted By: Steve Kays
Date: Tuesday, 27 July 1999, at 6:05 p.m.
 
I promise, these are my last questions about the Ki-84. First, in the "Model Art
book # 493" it has several cockpit photos. The photos show that there is a large
open area behind the pilots seat, where you can see further down the fuselage.
The color behind the seat also appears to be a variation of zinc chromate. However,
part #K3 of the Hasegawa kit (rear cockpit bulkhead) is not open, and appears to
be armor plate for the pilot. Which would be correct? Lastly, would the inner
surfaces of the "butterfly flaps" be painted aotake, left natural metal, or
painted the same as the underside surface? again, thanks in advance for any help.
 
Re: Even more Ki-84 info needed
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Tuesday, 27 July 1999, at 8:36 p.m.
 
In Response To: Even more Ki-84 info needed (Steve Kays)
 
The only surviving Frank has zinc chromate because it was painted that way after
the war. Also, she has some American radio gear in the cockpit that needs to be
either removed, or not placed if you want an accurate wartime bird. Part L12, in
step 1 needs to be omitted, and on the right side wall, part A12, the middle of
the three boxes on the "top" of the sidewall should be "Dremelled" out..... all
above information coutesy of Aero Detail #24.
As for the inside of the flaps, natural metal is the way to go. Also, the inside
of the wheel well, and gear doors should be silver.
 
Re: Even more Ki-84 info needed
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmer@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tuesday, 27 July 1999, at 8:54 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Even more Ki-84 info needed (Dan Salamone)
 
A couple of photos in my references indicate a possible slight variation - the
two vertical reinforcing ribs on the inner gear doors appear to be painted in
some photos- perhaps Aotake applied pre-assembly ?
Photos of inner rear fuselage structure of other Nakajima-built aircraft (A6M
and Ki-44) seem to show a similar treatment of fuselage formers with otherwise
NMF interior - perhaps this was standard ?
 
Re: Even more Ki-84 info needed
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Tuesday, 27 July 1999, at 9:01 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Evven more Ki-84 info needed (Pete Chalmers)
 
I can't say for sure, I don't think I have anything on the interiors of
fuselages..... But there is a photo on the bottom of page 58 in Aero Detail #24
showing a captured Ki-84 missing the fuselage hatch and what is showing is a
very bright color, makes me think it is plain NMF.
That said- I am sure there were variations, consensus here on the board seems to
be that early to mid build Franks had aotake painted cockpits where late build
were left NMF, so if true there may have been sporadic use of aotake on other
interior surfaces.....
 
Clear Frank?
 
Posted By: Steve Contella <contella@wt.net>
Date: Wednesday, 13 September 2000, at 3:25 p.m.
 
I was just browsing at HLJ and ran accross this. Hasegawa Skeleton Ki-84. It's in the Future Release section of the Aircraft Tab. Cost 4,200 Yen if memory serves. I don't see any mention of this on the Hasegawa site either.
 
Re: Clear Frank?
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Wednesday, 13 September 2000, at 10:07 p.m.
 
In Response To: Clear Frank? (Steve Contella)
 
This has been covered in Japanese modeling magazines. I don't think it will appear on the Hasegawa site until they show it at the Tokyo hobby show next week.
The photos in magazines looked very good (Frank and Zero). It seems that the clear parts are only for the fuselage and cowling /spinner and there are parts for the internal structures and components that become visible (e.g. oil tank, propeller counterweight, stringers, etc.) thru the clear plastic.
 
Re: Clear Frank?
 
Posted By: Rob Graham <reishikisenguy@aol.com>
Date: Friday, 15 September 2000, at 11:36 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Clear Frank? (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)
 
I haven't seen anything at all here in the states about it, and am now curious, are the wings clear as well?
Hobbylink says it's injection molded clear with injection molded parts, and I was guessing it was ALL clear except for details, sort of like Monogram's "Phantom Mustang" kit of days gone by, less the "home automation."
I'm looking forward to the kit, in spite of not knowing anything at all about it.
 
Re: Clear Frank? *PIC*
 
Posted By: Hioryuki Takeuchi
Date: Sunday, 24 September 2000, at 8:39 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Clear Frank? (Rob Graham)
 
I went down to the Tokyo Hobby Show today and here's the photo of the Hayate in question. Seems only the fuselage is clear, with white metal and photoetched interior parts.
<Editor's note: The picture is not reproduced here>
 
Re: Clear Frank?
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 6:22 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Clear Frank? (Rob Graham)
 
The sample was finished in green over gray with the spinner, parts of the cowling, front fuselage (where the E/G mount and oil tank is), the cockpit and parts of the rear fuselage left in clear plastic to show the interior. The wings were all painted so I don't think there are clear parts there.
 
Ki-84 seatbelts & harness
 
Posted By: Ken Durling <KDur597268@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 19 August 1999, at 8:41 p.m.
 
Me again. This time wondering about the Frank's seatbelts. No.1 - the HA kit
shows lapbelts only - is this correct? Debatable? Seems inconcievable to me, but
I really don't have broad knowledge of Japanese a/c. Everyone ELSE has shoulder
harnesses by the 2nd year of the war. No.2 - what color should the lapbelts -
and the harness if it is so - be?
 
Re: Ki-84 seatbelts & harness
 
Posted By: Mike <boneheadmg@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 12:01 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 seatbelts & harness (Ken Durling)
 
Peter Fearis is only partially correct in his response. While it appears to be
true that the Ki-84 (as well as most Japanese fighters)had only lap belts on the
seat, the belts molded on the Hasegawa seat are not lap belts at all!! They are, in fact,
the attachment belts for the parachute which is the "pad" molded into the
Hasegawa seat pan. It was common practice in most air forces for the pilot to wear the
parachute harness on his body, but leave the chute itself in the airplane. I
believe this is the first time ever that I have seen a model kit with the parachute molded in
the cockpit. Kudos to Hasegawa for that one!!
Okay, Japanese parachute harnesses were dyed a deep forest green color. I
believe the chute itself would be brown or brown drab. You will have to add the
lap belts to the Hasegawa seat. These are usually brown leather color with an off
white fabric lining. The belt buckle attachment is just like a waist belt buckle
with two pins and two corresponding rows of holes in the "free" belt strap.
 
Re: Ki-84 seatbelts & harness
 
Posted By: Peter Fearis
Date: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 1:20 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 seatbelts & harness (Ken Durling)
 
Lap belts it is I'm affraid indeed its the most common arrangement on IJAAF
types. As for colour research I have done comes uup with seerall web colours so
you can choose whichever you want, what I have done is listed the colours starting
with the most common color descending to the less common colour.
Bright green (similar to fresh grass)
Khaki drab
Beige
pale blue.
hope this helps
 
Re: Ki-84 seatbelts & harness
 
Posted By: Laurent MARTIN <martinl@ravnal.fr>
Date: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:08 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 seatbelts & harness (Peter Fearis)
 
i've purchase the "Eduard" seatbelts kit for the IJAAF's aircrafts.
In the first time i was surprise that only lapbelt figure in this add-on, but it
seem to be correct according to you.
Could you confirm there is no (never) shoulder harnesses on the "franck" ?
it seem strange on a fighter ! merci d'avance for the response
 
Ki-84 cockpit
 
Posted By: Ken Durling <KDur597268@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 5:54 p.m.
 
I hope you gentlemen can forgive an ignorant question: I just picked up the new
Hasegawa Hayate and we are told to paint the cockpit interior surfaces Aotake.
Is there a chance of that being correct? I thought Aotake was for non-crew areas. I
have the Aeromaster Najajima interior green. Should I use that instead? And
would it be safe to use Aotake on the wheel wells, flap interiors, etc? Here the
kit just says "silver."
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit
 
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 7:27 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 cockpit (Ken Durling)
 
By the Airplane painting regulations(Army) on March 3,1932,all metal surfaces
were painted translucent metal paint(Aotake) as a primer then only exterior
surfaces were painted Army official gray green metal paint as a top coat.
By revised regulations on Feb.5,1936,Aotake was changed to opaque metal primer
which was dark blue gray called Hairanshoku(Hai-Ai-iro,FS26118/36118) and tough
touchness than Aotake.However,Aotake was usually painted for internal areas
except crew area.
By the Army aircraft painting regulations on June 14,1943,Aotake was not painted
for paint saving from all internal alclad duralmin areas.
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 8:11 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit (Katsushi Owaki)
 
Just want to be clear about the last line from your post.... It seems then that
from June of 1943 on that painting aotake in any interior compartment was officially
frowned upon? If that was the "official" stance, then a person can assume that
the cockpits of the Ki-84 would "normally" be left NMF even though color artwork
in books, and the text of books like Aero Detail 24 on the Hayate show the
cockpit as painted with aotake, at least during early production.
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit
 
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 8:53 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit (Dan Salamone)
 
Please read my post "Olive Drab,recommended" on Aug.2 with your very
carefullness.I do not think Ki84 was NMF in the cockpit but I think to be
painted olive drab like FS34088 or slihgtly brownish one.
Unfortunately,we do not have any evidence of Ki84 interior color except "Army
Aircraft Painting Regulations"(Rikugun Koukuki Tosou Kitei,June 14,1943).
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 9:02 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit (Katsushi Owaki)
 
Thanks for the speedy reply.... I just reread your post from August 2nd. It
seems then possible, according to the Army Aircraft Painting Regulations per
June of 1943 that the upper camouflage, prop and cockpit were painted all a similar
color of olive or brown.
Hopefully some relics, or other evidence will surface on the subject of the
Ki-84, it seems that all we have at the moment, other than a handful of color
photos that may or may not accurately show colors, are black and white photos and some
documents that are rather vague.
I wonder what source Hasegawa used to say the cockpit was aotake- it seems that
more questions arise than answers! Thanks again for you help Katsushi, take care.
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit
 
Posted By: Mike Good <boneheadmg@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 10 August 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit (Dan Salamone)
 
Here we go again! Check out the cockpit photos of 1446 in the Aero Detail book,
particularly the one at the top right of pg. 23. The cockpit of this plane was
at some point painted dark green. This paint is flaking off the side wall in the
above mentioned photo. What is that peeking out form underneath? It looks to be
a rich dark green color (quite different from the matte green over painting). In the
photo just beneath this you can see zinc chromate primer peeking out of the flaked areas.
I assume this and the overall green color to have been applied by the U.S. after
capture.
The first time I looked at the former photo, I suspected that the dark green
color showing through was the original aotake paint. I have seen nothing to
suggest that this is not the case. Why have so many references repeated that the Frank
interior was aotake? Just because this does not agree with quoted regulations,
does not make it so............ We all know what happened to regulations during the utter
chaos of the last two years of manufacturing in Japan and Germany. All we are doing
is taking educated guesses here. I am going with the consensus opinion. If it
ain't right, then how am I to know? The answer is, I don't know and I get the
feeling nobody else does either!
If you don't have that cockpit painted yet, then AMS is definitely settling
in!!! Just choose a color and go!! My Frank is getting a bluish green aotake
interior. 'Nuff said!!
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints
 
Posted By: Ken Durling <KDur597268@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 5:01 p.m.
 
Thanks much for the "saline" confirmation! I will take it under proviso. You
know I think I actually once heard of a modeler who used grains of salt as lever
knob handles in 1/72 scale.
Now maybe folks who are following this thread can comment on a couple of things:
I have the old Floquil color #303236 - Japan Int Metal Blue - which I assume is
to be Aotake, but it's not metallic at all, just a blue gray close to US Interm.
Blue - is this supposed to be overcoated with something or mixed with something?
Somewhere else on this site someone recommended PollyScale Anodized Blue
Metallic for Aotake. I have some and am wondering what folks think of that idea.
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints
 
Posted By: John Acosta <xmdjna@cs.com>
Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 10:19 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints (Ken Durling)
 
I've been using a few different methods for blue aotake. One is the use of
straight Poly Scale anodized blue which comes out a very light blue with a
metallic sheen showing. This turns out very nice and looks in scale. Another method is to use
straight Gunze metalic blue, however I find this to be too dark and, from an
artistic-interperative standpoint, somewhat unpleasing to my eye. The last
method gleaned from Mr. Peter Fearis' modelers guide to IJAAF colors "The
Samuri's Wings. Army." (I highly reccomend this book if you don't have it yet!) is to
first paint the surface aluminium and then mix metalic blue in to Gunze's clear
coat (~50:50) and spray this over the metalic base coat. I've gotten some nice
results using this method. Also if you prefer working with enamels you can
substitute Testor Model Master Japanese metalic blue and use an enamel based
clear to get the same results. Perhaps you may get good results using Floquils
interior blue in the same manner as well.
Have fun experimenting!
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Wednesday, 11 August 1999, at 9:07 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints (Ken Durling)
 
I read of a technique on Hyperscale where a fellow painted the cockpit a neutral
grey, did a wash of black then misted a combination of clear blue and green
Tamiya paint to simulate aotake....
I tried it and was not happy with it (my fault). I felt that the grey base
looked good on the unassembled parts, but once dry fitted into the fuselage, it
was too dark IMHO. I'm going to redo it, but using silver as the base, and I may actually try
to mist the clear green and blue separately, trying to achieve a mix of colors
in layers.
FWIW I used that Floquil Metallic Blue on my Raiden gear legs last year- looks
OK but if I had to do it again I'd try something else.
Hope the above was helpfuul, take it easy Ken!
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints
 
Posted By: Gregg Cooper <corsair13@compuall.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 12:40 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints (Dan Salamone)
 
The guy on Hyperscale was me. It is true that I started with a neutral gray base
coat. But the thing you missed in your post was the fact that I DRYBRUSHED
Testors Chrome Silver over the gray basecoat, before the clear blue-green
mixture was applied. This approach allows the metallic sheen of the drybrushed
silver to show through the blue-green mixture, while at the same time, the gray in the
nooks and crannies provides the shading. The intensity of the blue-green coat depends on how many THIN coats are applied.
When done, another LIGHT drybrush with silver followed by a dark wash, completes
the effect.
I tried four different approaches before settling on this one. All of the others
were too bright for my tastes, and involved various different silver bases and
washes before the clears.
BTW, I am using Tamiya clears thinned with Gunze's Mr. Color thinner. This
thinner allows the Tamiya paints to go on SMOOTHLY and translucent, even with
opaque colors.
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 3:52 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints (Gregg Cooper)
 
I did forget to mention the silver drybrushing- but IMHO it was still too dark
once dry fit into the fuselage. Of course, we are talking personal preference
here on a color that had infinite variety in real life so I was just making an
observation.
Nice technique though- I'll be using it in a variation later tonight and I hope
I'll be able to get the nice thin mist layers of the Tamiya paint needed to do
this. Take it easy,
 
Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints
 
Posted By: Ken Durling <KDur597268@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 12 August 1999, at 9:40 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 cockpit and 2 "Aotake" paints (Gregg Cooper)
 
An intriguing approach. I'm wondering if you are familiar with the Floquil color
"Japan Int Metal Blue" (Floquil 303236, FS15107) and whether you think it is
designed to be used this way? It's a bluish-gray, but has no metallic element,
despite the name. All the discussion I've heard about Aotake assumes that since
it is a translucent laquer you can see the metallic surface below. The Floquil opacity
has me baffled.
 
Ki84 prop color again
 
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Sunday, 8 August 1999, at 10:32 p.m.
 
What was ki84 prop.color?
Model Art #283/Ki84 7th color chip shows Ki84 prop.color which is
10GY3/2(FS34092).This is the first time to introduce as a different prop.color far from
normal dark brown.This was reproduced by HASEGAWA,Ichiro with the memory of
WATANABE,Tadamitsu.But ISHIKAWA,Kenji claims it is
incorrect,Mr.ISHIKAWA is a very important person to reproduce several color tips
for MA#329.
Another person,SHIMOUNE,Noboru who sent me a couple of color tips, remembers the
late war prop.color as 5GY3.5/2.3(FS34094) for
Ki84/87/43III/94II/100/102/106,additinally yellow blade tips.compared with upper
camouflage of 7.5Y3/1.5(FS34088) for Tachikawa built Ki43III/74/54/94.
The third one is the 7th color tip of MA#395/Ki43 page 41,2.5G4.5/2(approx
FS34092) reproduced by NOHARA,Shigeru.
The last one is 2.5Y3/3(FS20095 with slightly greenish) as Ki100 of Yasukuni
Shrine.
Which choose you?
 
Re: Ki84 prop color again
 
Posted By: Ken Durling <KDur597268@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 16 August 1999, at 12:02 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki84 prop color again (Katsushi Owaki)
 
But ISHIKAWA,Kenji claims it is incorrect,Mr.ISHIKAWA is a very important
person to reproduce several color tips for MA#329.
Another person,SHIMOUNE,Noboru who sent me a couple of color tips, remembers
the late war prop.color as 5GY3.5/2.3(FS34094) for Ki84
I'd like to ask if Mr. Ishikawa, disagreeing, did propose the correct prop
color? Or would he agree with Mr.Shimoune?
Also if someone could advise - I don't have a FS fandeck, is 34094 a lighter
version of 34092?
 
Re: Ki84 prop color again
 
Posted By: Scott Spencer <scotts@faasig.org>
Date: Wednesday, 18 August 1999, at 8:35 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki84 prop color again (Ken Durling)
 
There is a big difference between 34094 & 34092. In my opinion, the 34094 is
more of a dark forest/marine green and the 34092 is more like the often
discussed bronze green. Does that make sense? :-) I know someone will step
forward to offer better descriptions of the differences in the colors than I
just did. One thing is for sure, one is not the lighter shade of the other.
 
Re: Ki84 prop color again
 
Posted By: Ken Durling <KDur597268@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 18 August 1999, at 8:59 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki84 prop color again (Scott Spencer)
 
Thanks, Scott - indeed that is a good description. Pete Chalmers offered the
"less bluish tinge" description for 094, and also pointed out that PollyScale
has 094 as
"NATO Tri-color Green" which I happen to have a bottle of. Comparing it to the
Model Master "Euro Dark Green," I couldn't have described it better than you and
Pete myself. Guess i'll shoot my Frank prop with it!
 
Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Mike Good <boneheadmg@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 1 August 1999, at 11:53 a.m.
 
I just recieved my Hasegawa Ki-84 yesterday. It is the best plastic kit I have
ever seen in this scale. Brilliant!! :o)
That nagging brown color keeps on coming up in my references, particularly in
the Model Art Special. I realize this color is documented for The "Shoki"
(Ki-44). Is their any conclusive information about the use of this color on the Frank? The
above mentioned source even shows the last existing Hayate (1446, of the 11th
Sentai) in brown! Surely this paint job would have been documented somewhere if
true? I kind of like the idea of a brown paint job as an alternative, but I find
it hard to swallow that it was as common as the Model Art Special would have us
believe.
So, what do the experts here have to say about this......, Brown Franks, true or
false, and to what extent? Also, any approximate color matches?
 
Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmer@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Monday, 2 August 1999, at 10:13 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction? (Mike Good)
 
I hate to be redundant, but:
Here's the URL for a scan of a great color photo from Kokufan taken at Clark
Field P.I. in 1945 which has Ki-44 and Ki-45 aircraft in the late-war brown.
http://www.marksindex.com/aviation/temp/tojo_1.jpg
Jim Lansdale has pegged ( pun intended ) the color at FS 20095 fading to FS
30118 - I would also call FS 33105, which is very similar. There are a number
of model paints which come very close "OOT Bottle"
I scanned this from the Kokufan, and the colors differ slightly from the
magazine, but are close enough.
I would look at the photo carefully - especially the skin and uniform tones of
the (probably) USN guy, the red of the tail markings, and the green mottle on
one of the other Ki-45's. I would guess that the pic is a copy of a Kodachrome,
and certainly NOT "FS"-able, but it is consistant with J.L.'s read of the Peggy
relics. There is a shift toward olive as you move to the right of the pic, but
look hard at the vertical stab of the Ki-45 and the fatigue cap on the GI -
that's a Marine cap. I wouldn't suggest that the photo is a precise rendition of
the true colors, but those skin tones are pretty true and the greens are pretty
different from the paint on the airframes.
The dark green with blueish tinge seen in the Ki-84 pic in the Aerodetail ( a
much larger and clearer print of the same pic is to be found on p.169 of "WWII
War Eagles" ( Ethell & Bodie ) is also enlightening - almost a IJNAF color.
Both colors don't really resemble a "34088"-ish olive drab or the much lighter
green mottles on the Kokufan pic.
I still haven't seen a Ki-84 pic or relic in the brown, so its use on that
airframe is speculative. The Ki-43-III supposedly used the brown, but the really
faded pic of same on p.212 of "WWII Pacific War Eagles" ( Ethell/Bodie again) could be almost any color you wish.
 
Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Mike Good <boneheadmg@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 2 August 1999, at 11:58 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction? (Pete Chalmers)
 
Thanks for all the replies to my posting. You are the only guy who actually
addressed the issue of whether or not the brown was ever used on the Ki-84. I
was aware of it's use on other aircraft. It appears that there is NO conclusive
evidence for the use of brown on the Frank. It nevertheless is an intriguing
notion. I guess nobody will take me to task if I decide to paint mine that way.
I did look at that color pic before. The color shift is not horrible, as you
say. It fades toward orange on one side of the photo, and green on the other.
Somewheres about the hinomaru on the Ki-45 we should be getting pretty close to reality. I
was picturing the color as being a bit more "chocolate". FS 30118 is a pretty
neutral and none to attractive shade of brown. I don't have an FS book, so all of this
is conjecture on my part, but I believe that 30118 is the same as RAF dark
earth, correct?
BTW, a heads up on that green painted Frank in the Aero Detail book. If you will
look at the photos on page 3, you will notice that although the aircraft had a
complete upper surface camouflage, the Americans completely stripped it of paint
during overhaul. What this clearly indicates is that the green paint on 1446 is
not original. Whether or not the color shown has any resemblance to its original
paint color, is certainly open to question. Knowing this, I wouldn't conclude
too much from 1446's current paint finish.
 
Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmer@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Monday, 2 August 1999, at 3:44 p.m.
 
A case can be made for the brown based on the way the late Ki-44 was painted
when compared with the Ki-84, and where they were produced. I won't address
the latter - I'll leave that for the historians in this group - but Ki-44's
painted in the brown had the 4-digit aircraft serial stencilled just forward and
slightly below the hor. stab. - looks like in underside grey in the Kokufan photo, and they
retained the black anti-glare.
Photos of clean presumably factory-como'd Ki-44 show identical stencilling.
Similar photos of Ki-84 aircraft at the factory show identical stencilling,
albeit w/o the anti-glare, and also exhibit the more pallid color - though
unknown exposure and film type make this assumption a bit dicey.
The FAOW's for the respective aircraft have good comparable photos.
I assume Jim Lansdale did the AD24 research and feels pretty comfortable about
the "switch" to brown - or he would have qualified his statement on p.49 of
same.
I personally am going to make 1 NMF, 1 mottled, 1 brown/grey, and 1 green/grey
to cover all bases ! Couldn't happen to a nicer kit.
 
Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <hall41@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sunday, 1 August 1999, at 6:56 p.m.
 
On page 5 of Military Aircraft of 9/94, Delta Shuppan, there is a
color photo of a Frank next to a Lily. As with many early color
photos and slides turned into prints, there is some lack of
fidelity in color. In fact, I suspect the color in the print
is not the color as it really was, but for ballpark estimates,
it appears to be about FS 0097, maybe with a bit of FS 3070.
The underside is in shadow so it's impossible to say what color
it was. However, let's not confuse a mixture of white and brown
with gray. White and brown make other browns and beiges, sometimes
rather pinkish colors, depending on how much red is in the brown.
 
Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Art Loder <aloder1@nycap.rr.com>
Date: Sunday, 1 August 1999, at 7:36 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction? (Tom Hall)
 
You are certainly correct to urge caution in using contemporary color
photos to gauge colors. Color drift from these old Kodachromes is notorious.
Still, Since I am presently uncertain of the provenance of the ModelArt Color
chips [although they are certainly a lot closer to the subject, in several
senses, than I am], the contemporary pictures can provide at least a bit of
guidance. Thanks for the note...Art
 
Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction?
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <hall41@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sunday, 1 August 1999, at 8:32 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction? (Art Loder)
 
I hope you have not painted your model in the last hour
or two because I'm having second thoughts about colors as
dark as FS 0097. In fact, I think if I were doing a model,
I would opt for something in the FS 0145 - 3105 neighborhood.
About all I can guarantee is that if this color print was
made from a slide, the color of the real plane was different!
Have fun playing with the formula.
 
Olive Drab, recommended
 
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Monday, 2 August 1999, at 5:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84 Brown paint, fact or fiction? (Tom Hall)
 
I recommend to paint IJAAF Olive Drab as a upper camouflage,which was called
"Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku"(directoly translated to Yellow-Green No.7,however it
means Olive Drab).This color was an official standard color since June
15,1943,and painted as a upper camouflage,cockpit interior,propeller-blade(with
yellow blade-tip),spinner,drop tank and also prime-coat for almost Army airplanes.
The interior example is the floor color of Garber's Ki45 of Walk Around photo.
Please recall my articles on Dec.19 & 21,1998.
The color is one of hue range 2.5Y to 7.5Y,value/chroma 3/2 to 3/3. The
approxmately equivalent is the color tip #2(7.5Y3/1.5)or #3(2.5Y3/2), page17 of
MA#428/Ki61/Ki100 issue or FS14087(7.5Y2/2) of old FS595A.
 
Re: Olive Drab, recommended
 
Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <kinson-garments@on.aibn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 3 August 1999, at 9:02 p.m.
 
In Response To: Olive Drab, recommended (Katsushi Owaki)
 
Very interesting! I knew that "Ohryoku 7-go shoku= yellow green no.7" was used
on IJA fighter 200 litre drop tanks, but didn't know that it was also used as
upper camo colour, prop blade, etc. Is this a conclusion you came about
yourself? Or is there a reference that you can quote from? If there is such a
reference, please let us know! I'm very interested! When you say your
"articles", which articles are you referring to? Oshiete kudasai! Onegai shimasu!
 
Re: Olive Drab, recommended
 
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Wednesday, 4 August 1999, at 1:01 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Olive Drab, recommended (Tennessee Katsuta)
 
My reference is "Rikugun kokuki tosou kitei"(Army aircraft painting regurations
on June 14, 1943).
 
Ki-84: color for "prop green"
 
Posted By: Ronnie Murray <ronnie.murray@ncmail.net>
Date: Thursday, 20 May 1999, at 10:02 a.m.
 
Hey guys, one thing I like about the Japanese aircraft,the colors
of the prop blades. I've seen them NMF, the reddish-brown and in
the case of the Ki-84, green. All the references I have indicate
it was "prop green". The only color references are paintings or
drawings, no color "photos". Do any of you know what would be a
good match for "prop green"? Was this the only Japanese plane with
a green prop? It's the only one I've found any reference for.
 
Re: Ki-84: color for "prop green"
 
Posted By: Peter Fearis <Peter@pfearis.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thursday, 20 May 1999, at 11:09 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84: color for "prop green" (Ronnie Murray)
 
The best colour I have foun d for the props of the Ki-84 is Tamiya XF26 mixed
with a little light grey to scale, i.e. for 1:48th scale add 12% by volume or
put it another way 1 quarter of your chosen scale. The nearest F.S. number is
34128. The only other aircraft I know of with this colour on the Prop's was the
experimental Ki-76, also a Nakajima design. The colour was due to the prop
manufacturer not to Nakajima
 
Re: Ki-84: color for "prop green"
 
Posted By: Peter Fearis <Peter@pfearis.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Friday, 21 May 1999, at 3:11 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Ki-84: color for "prop green" (Peter Fearis)
 
Ops!
Sorry did this again guys, must look before I leap, the other type should have
been a Ki-87 not Ki-76! I have the 76 on my mind at the moment I am building the
USK one. Sorry again
 
Re: Ki-84: color for "prop green"
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <hall41@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thursday, 20 May 1999, at 11:08 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84: color for "prop green" (Ronnie Murray)
 
There is a color photo from the collection of Jeff Ethell at the front
of Military Aircraft 016 of 9/94, a Japanese publication. The greens in
the photo are not too good but it looks as if the prop was not like a
granny Smith apple. There was some olive in it.
I think if you can find some other Ratier-designed props on Japanese
planes, you might consider the same color for them, too. Maybe the
Ki-87 or Ki-94 II?
 
Ki-84 butterfly flaps
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Sunday, 23 May 1999, at 8:40 p.m.
 
Now that we know the upcoming Hasegawa kit has separately molded butterfly flaps
my question is: Were these ever seen lowered on the ground? I can't seem to
find a photo showing this, although I am currently awaiting a few more books on
the Ki-84 now. Thanks in advance for any information,
 
Re: Ki-84 butterfly flaps
 
Posted By: C. C. Cheng <cheng.150@osu.edu>
Date: Monday, 24 May 1999, at 9:59 p.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 butterfly flaps (Dan Salamone)
 
Forgive my stupidˇK..Why we call Ki-84's flap "butterfly flap"? It doesnˇ¦t look
like butterfly.
Ok, I know buffalo wing doesn't look like a buffalo. Is butterfly flap a similar
story like this?
 
Re: Ki-84 butterfly flaps
 
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <bsanborn@psedd.com>
Date: Monday, 24 May 1999, at 10:00 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 butterfly flaps (Dan Salamone)
 
I agree, this is rare, but check Francillion page 233.
 
Re: Ki-84 butterfly flaps
 
Posted By: Ronnie Murray <ronnie.murray@ncmail.net>
Date: Monday, 24 May 1999, at 9:51 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 butterfly flaps (Dan Salamone)
 
Hey Dan, I've borrowed several good reference books on the "Frank"
and am currently working on three Ki-84 models. I haven't seen any
photos that show the flaps open on the ground. I only have one photo
that shows the flaps open and that is an underside shot of the plane
as it is in a banking turn and seems to be coming in for a landing.
 
Re: Ki-84 butterfly flaps
 
Posted By: Nick Wantiez <haroldwantiez@sprintmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 25 May 1999, at 10:18 p.m.
 
US Army Air Corps Interim report No. F-IM-1119A-ND dated 16 May, 1946 describes
the Frank-1 Ki-84 fighter, two of which were delivered to Middletown
Air Depot, Middletown, PA about 1 Feb, 1946 for restoration and flight test. The
report describes the control surfaces as follows:
"6. CONTROL SURFACES: All control surfaces are conventional and are operated in
a conventional manner. They are actuated by the pilot in the cockpit by
means of a stick and rudder pedals. The flaps are hydraulically operated."
The actual flight testing was done later on that year probably in late May.
The butterfly flap was the work of Dr. Itokawa - I think it was dubbed
"butterfly" because of its shape although it was closer to a dragonfly's wing in
my opinion. I
was not aware that it was used on the Ki-84 until I saw this posting.
 
Ki-84 info needed
 
Posted By: Steve Kays
Date: Sunday, 25 July 1999, at 3:08 a.m.
 
Like everyone I am building the new Ki-84 kit. I have a question about markings
and aircraft type. I plan on using Aeromaster sheet # 48-040C, and using the
markings for aircraft # 3. The 29th air combat regiment a/c with the blue arrow
on the tail. Would these markings be correct for the Hasegawa kit? Aeromaster's
sheet indicates Ki-84A. The kit indicates Ki-84I. is that the same thing? any
help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
 
Re: Ki-84 info needed
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <dano@rust.net>
Date: Sunday, 25 July 1999, at 7:29 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 info needed (Steve Kays)
 
As far as the versions go, Aeromaster seems to have "mislabeled" the aircraft so
yes, it is a Ki-84I.... usually the distinguishing identifier for the Frank are the "Ko",
"Otsu", and there were 2 batches of "supplementary prototypes" which were more
or less similar to the "Ko". The very earliest Franks had a single exhaust on
each side where the norm was multiple exhaust stacks like a late Zero, or a Raiden.
I seem to remember discussion here last year that there is no evidence to show
that the wave marking is accurate on any Frank, hopefully somebody else can shed
more light on that here...
 
Ki-84 Frank Interior Color
 
Posted By: Kevin M. Batterman <KevinBat@juno.com>
Date: Sunday, 25 July 1999, at 10:14 a.m.
 
I recently picked up the new Hasegawa Ki-84 and plan to build it in the near
future. The instructions say to paint the cockpit interior Aotake (metallic blue
green) using Gunze paint and the wheel wells, etc. in natural metal. Can somebody
confirm if this is correct because in the past I have been told that the interiors were
painted a green very similar to the RAF color. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Ki-84 Frank Interior Color
 
Posted By: Peter Fearis <Peter@pfearis.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sunday, 25 July 1999, at 11:41 a.m.
 
In Response To: Ki-84 Frank Interior Color (Kevin M. Batterman)
 
Aotake is indeed correct for the Ki-84, some of the very late ones were also
left unpainted. The colour interior shot I have showa the Aotake leans toward
the green end of the range. Bob Mikesh has the photo at the moment as I think he is going
to use it in his new cockpit interior book due out later this year.
Hope this helps, sorry the wheel wells were generally left in a N/M finish.
Ki 84 Colours.
 
Posted By: Jose Sanchez. <jcsber@wanadoo.es>
Date: Sunday, 20 May 2001, at 5:20 p.m.
 
I want paint my Hayate kit in upper brown color. Can anybody tell me the mix for this colour in Gunze or Tamiya paints?
 
Thank you.
 
Posted By: Harvey Low <hlsml@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wednesday, 23 May 2001, at 9:47 p.m.
 
A close FS595b equivalent for Khaki-drab brown is 30118. Try Gunze H72. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a close match for Tamiya
ki-84 performance...so which is it?
 
Posted By: Jomo Stewart <Silo_FT@hotmail.com>
Date: Monday, 10 September 2001, at 7:47 a.m.
 
Hello everyone.
I was looking at some performance figures for the Ki-84-1a and notice three number circulating.
388mph (as per Japanese tests on early production model)
422mph (TAIC from captured Ki-84 at Clark [92 octane])
427mph (at Wright field w/ rebuilt engine? [100 octane])
 
I have heard rumor that the orignal 388 number was done without using water-meth injection, and the engine was run at 2900 RPM instead of the maximum 3000.
 
The 422 number was achieved with the water-meth injection and used japanese 92 octane fuel.
 
Does anyone know the true performance of the Ki-84-1a... or rather the most standard, using the common HA-45 21 engine?
 
Re: ki-84 performance...so which is it?
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, 15 September 2001, at 10:13 a.m.
 
In Response To: ki-84 performance...so which is it? (Jomo Stewart)
 
I talk from memory so I don't remember the designations but all above might well be true. I don't think that any wartime Ki84 had capacity above 400mph unless, it was very well maintained.
 
Late Ki84s had upgraded engine of 1990hp as opposed to 1800hp (which was hard to get anyway). I assume captured Ki84s were very well maintained and serviced and they appear to be late models with more powerful engines. Lacking paint also increase speed by several miles depending on paint.
 
If you look for Ki84s performance during war regarless of circumtances take 380-390mph at most, usually it is even lower.
 
British performance comparisons
 
Posted By: Graham Boak <graham@boak98.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, 22 September 2001, at 5:33 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: ki-84 performance...so which is it? (Deniz Karacay)
 
In the latest Air Britain magazine Aeromilitaria there is a long (half-page) column summarising the trials carried out using Seafires at Clark Field from May 1945. There was to be a significant number of other US and Japanese a/c in the trials, but because of various problems this was reduced to the Frank.
 
Interesting comments include: the Frank was limited to 250mm manifold pressure and 2900 rpm. It does not state why, nor how much of a limitation this would have been.
The Seafire could match aceleration at 5000ft, they climbed in formation to 15000 ft, the Seafire then reached 20000ft 45 seconds before the Frank. The rate of turn was tested at 5000ft between 160 and 180 knots (presumably indicated not true). The Seafire outturned the Frank fairly easily, combat flaps on the Frank not seeming to provide any improvement.
 
Frank's speed was 330mph at sealevel, 400mph at 20000ft. (with Ha 45 engine). Seafire pilots were advised to take advantage of high speed performance superiority.
 
Frank was difficult to service, panels were not interchangeable and difficult to fit. Poor rivetting, no protection against corossion. The undercarriage was notoriously weak, difficult to maintain, tyres were difficult to remove and the brakes incredibly bad. Pilot vision was poor.
 
Incidentally, the Seafire was judged superior to the F6F and P-51 below 10,000ft - no other information given in the brief article.
 
The source is ADM1/17474. Presumably there will be a similar report in US archives?
 
Found it
 
Posted By: Deniz Karacay <denizkaracay@yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, 24 September 2001, at 11:56 a.m.
 
In Response To: British performance comparisons (Graham Boak)
 
I have pic of NN610, Seafire MkIII with normal wingtips, flying formation with a Ki84, F6F (look like F6F5 but quality and size of the picture is poor, but can't see window behind pilot) and a P51D/K Mustang.
 
IJAAF tests during war shows Ki84 with Homare Ha45-11 of 1800hp did 388mph @ 19,685ft @ 8,576lbs and Ki84II with 1990hp Ha45-23 did 416mph @ 8,495lb.
 
US test a/c did 427mph @ 20,000 ft but at a much lower weight of 7,940lbs implying low fuel load and possibly without ammo.
 
I am not surprised that Seafire III could out do most a/c at low altitude, it was one of the best in that category.
 
Specifications come from Profile Publications #70, Nakajima Hayate Ki84
 
Re: British performance comparisons
 
Posted By: Jim Broshot
Date: Saturday, 22 September 2001, at 6:29 a.m.
 
In Response To: British performance comparisons (Graham Boak)
 
Does the article state which Mark(s) of Seafires were being used?
 
Re: British performance comparisons
 
Posted By: Graham Boak <graham@boak98.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, 22 September 2001, at 11:28 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: British performance comparisons (Jim Broshot)
 
Not directly, but it does give the serials of the two aircraft. NN610 and NN611. At that time and place they would be L.Mk.IIIs. With the light weight and low-altitude rated engine that would explain their performance: at higher altitudes the P-51D would be far superior.
 
OK,OK, I'll go and look for sure! Sturtivant's Aircraft of the FAA confirms this, and names the pilot as Major P. Nelson-Gracie, Royal Marines.
 
There is a colour picture of an NN-serialed Seafire, with BPF roundel/bar but no unit markings, at Clark Field in Jeffrey Ethell's Wings Of War. I can't make out the rest of the serial but have no doubt it is one of the two trial aircraft.
 
Re: British performance comparisons
 
Posted By: Jim Broshot
Date: Saturday, 22 September 2001, at 5:41 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: British performance comparisons (Graham Boak)
 
Confirmed by SUPERMARINE AIRCRAFT SINCE 1914 (Andrews and Morgan).
 
Seafire Mark III Type 358
 
"250, NN333 to 641, ordered 5 January, 1943, from Cunliffe-Owen as: NN333-367, 379-418, 431-476, 488-528, 542-586, 599-641. Delivered as LF.III."
 
Equipped with Merlin 55M with cropped supercharger impeller giving 1,585hp at 2,750ft.
 
Re: ki-84 performance...so which is it?
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 September 2001, at 1:37 a.m.
 
In Response To: ki-84 performance...so which is it? (Jomo Stewart)
 
The Ha45 was designed to use 100 octane or at least 92 octane fuel but most IJA fuel was around 87 octane and probably even worse towards the end of the war. That means the motor had to be run on less boost and less power. Since the engine quality and airframe finish were also suffering, that all reflected upon performance. Writer Minoru Akimoto mentions that some Hayates in service conditions were lucky to achieve 600km/h (370mph). No wonder the 580km/h (360mph) Ki100 is often touted as the being better than the Ki84.
 
So while the Ki84 design had a 420mph potential, elements of reality (poor fuel, faulty engines, rought airframe finish, etc) often limited its performance to a lower level. May be the 624km/h (388mph) figure is about right after all.
 
Re: ki-84 performance...so which is it?
 
Posted By: richard dunn <rdunn@rhsmith.umd.edu>
Date: Monday, 10 September 2001, at 3:01 p.m.
 
In Response To: ki-84 performance...so which is it? (Jomo Stewart)
 
Don't know about "true" but I'll give you what I found upon glancing at my files. A technical notebook captured at Clark Field (ADVATIS No. 92) has rather complete data on the Ki 84, however, it is undated and its source uncertain. Max speed is given as 624 kph (=387.5 mph). This is at 6550 meters altitude, 2900 rpm and +250 boost. Fuel is given as 92 octane and the capacity of the methanol tank is mentioned in the report. Unfortunately another tech manual on the Ki 84 is published in mimeographed form, completely sourced and dated, gives great technical detail, but no performance data.
 
Two POW reports comment on Ki 84 performance. One POW (who flew the Ki43-2) says max speed for the Ki 84 is 650kph true and 550 indicated at 5000 meters. Another POW, a Ki84 pilot, says max speed is 700kph true and 600 indicated. He gives no altitude and says he has never flown faster than 550 kph indicated. Those speeds equate to about 404mph and 435mph respectively.