-
Kawasaki Ki-61
"Tony"
Topics:
New Ki-61 model kit
Ki-61 Tei....Long or Short Nosed ?
Kobayashi's Ki 61
Ki 61 I Color Stripes
Posted By: Antonio Veiga <aveiga@airtel.net>
Date: Wednesday, 18 April 2001, at 3:56 p.m.
After my previous post in this forum(Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 Antonio Veiga -- Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 5:13 p.m.),I´ve found in the web a new release from the firm Hasegawa that think will be of interest for you:
Item No. 09372
1/48 Kawasaki Ki-61-1 Tei Hien (Tony) "18th Flight Training Unit"
(Source: http://www.jeffreystein.co.za/hasegawa.htm)
Posted By: Antonio Veiga <aveiga@airtel.net>
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 2:03 p.m.
I need your help
http://www.marksindex.com/aviation/tony/ki_61_tei_color_1.jpg
In this webpage appears a nice artwork of a Ki-61 with a stylized 18 as tail unit emblem that puzzle me.
Its caption reads:
"Ki-61-I-Tei flown by 1st.Lt. Naoto Fukunaga, 18 Sentai, Java, Dec.44. The hiragana on the front reads
"tsurugi" (sword)"
In the superb book of Peter Scott "Emblems of the rising sun" (I recommend it you) the 18th sentai doesn´t appears to have such tail emblem.
Can anyone tell me why?
Where is the key to that "mistery"?
What is the explanation?
Saw the Ki-61s from this unit any action?
What were their tasks?
Who were its opponents?
I´d thank any information about.
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 3:05 p.m.
In Response To: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
A photograph of this particular aircraft appears on page 81 of FAOW 17 (Bunrin-Do) on the Army Type 3 Fighter "Hien" and shows clearly the tail marking depicted in the painting. This was, I believe, the "standard" tail marking for the 18th Sentai. Photographs of other Ki61 aircraft in the same book also show the marking represented in Peter Scott's book as the 18th Sentai. I believe the latter marking actually identified aircraft from the "Shinten Seikutai", air-to-air ramming, sub-unit of the 18th Sentai ( BTW can one of our Japanese language buffs provide a literal translation of the component characters for
"Shinten Seikutai"?).
The sentai was formed in Japan on 10 Feb 1944, allegedly from elements of the 244th Sentai, and served in the Philippines and Japan, being disbanded at Matsudo, Tokyo, at war's end. I have no idea what this particular Ki61 was doing in Java!
Lt Mitsuo Oyake of the 18th Sentai was awarded the Bukosho for the claimed destruction of 4 B-29's over Japan, one by ramming, on 7 Apr 1945, and a splendid colour plate of his aircraft, with the "Peter Scott" type tail marking, appears in Model Art 416 "Medaled Pilots of Japanese Army Air Force in World War II" (together with a photo of
Oyake).
Whilst undoubtedly excellent, and a truly ground breaking English language record of IJAAF unit insignia, "Emblems of the Rising Sun", does contain some errors and cannot be regarded as definitive.
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 3:19 p.m.
In Response To: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
This is an actual tail code. The URL you give shows the excellent work of Shigeru Nohara and is the same art shown as the page 9 fold-out of FAoW #17, Army Type 3 Fighter "Hien." There are two photos that show the actual marking at the bottom of page 81 of this same publication. The unit is the 18(something); I can't read the Japanese caption. You might ask our resident translator, George, for a translation of the caption.
I'll send you a scan of the photo showing the marking.
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 4:39 p.m.
In Response To: Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Don Marsh)
Konnichi wa minasama,
this is what the photo caption says:
"A photo taken between end of 1944 and early 1945 at Java island's Malang airfield {for those with a map, it's close to Surabaya, to the South}, of members of the 18th Rensei Hikotai and Type 3 fighter, Model 1 Tei. From these two photos we understand the design of the unit's marking (white with red frame). The fuselage is painted overall deep green, fuselage's Hinomaru has a white frame and to the rear of the fuselage an overseas bandage/line is painted (look at the fold out profile page).
Notice that the Hikoki book doesn't mention an 18th Rensei Hikotai. Also, that the marking has the stylised form of number "18".
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Larry deZeng <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 3:33 p.m.
In Response To: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
I cannot answer your questions concerning the markings of 18th Hiko Sentai, but perhaps someone else can. Meanwhile, here is a little historical information for the period around December 1944.
There is no official evidence of 18th Hiko Sentai ever being in Java. Instead, it transferred from Chofu AB on the outskirts of Tokyo to Angeles-West on Luzon in the northern Philippines between 6 and 17 Nov 44 with approximately 30 Ki-61-Is and 84 men under the command of Major Rinzo ISOZUKA. Two days later, on 19 November, the Sentai was ordered to move immediately to Bacolod on Negros Island in the Central Philippines to commence attacks on Allied airfields on Leyte and on invasion shipping in Leyte Gulf. By the beginning to December, after receiving some additional planes, its strength had risen to 41 TONYs but during the month it suffered catastrophic losses and was reduced to just 6 planes by the end of the December. Decimated and no longer operational, its surviving pilots and key maintenance technicians were ordered back to Japan where it was rebuilt at Kashiwa AB, 16 miles NE of Tokyo. By mid-March 1945 it was again operational under 10th Hikoshidan in defense of eastern Honshu and particularly the Tokyo area.
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Antonio Veiga <aveiga@airtel.net>
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 4:53 p.m.
In Response To: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
Thanks a lot for your posts. I think can already solve the "mistery".
I believe some of you are mistaken as I was before, because you are confusing two different 18
sentais:
a) 18th Sentai (Fighter Air Regiment)
b) 18th Sentai (Flight Drilling unit)
"Unit formed at Bandung, Java, 30 Oct. 1944 with Ki.61
as original equipment.Purpose was specialist advanced flight training, with unit transferred to Sumatra in
April 1945 for air defense over Palembang in
cooperation with 7th Sentai (Flight Drilling Unit).Disbanded two weeks before end of war at Palembang on 1 Aug. 1945"
Source: "Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien in Japanese Army Air Force service" by Richard M. Bueschel
Are you agree?
You can find some additional artwork about this unit at this
webpage:
http://www02.u-page.so-net.ne.jp/sa2/i-tomo/hien%20room.html
Can any of you give me information about the operations of this unit?
Which were their opponents?
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Wednesday, 11 April 2001, at 6:12 p.m.
In Response To: Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
Aha! Yes, good posts! This is what it's all about!
George, can you translate "Rensei Hikotai" for us?
HMSO refers to it as "Specialist Advanced Flying Training Unit". I can't identify "Rensei" other than a "binary star"!
"Hikotai" I know is "Flying Unit"
And what about "Shinten
Seikutai"?
Good stuff.
Re: Rensei Hikotai
Posted By: Allan Alsleben <Wildcat42@AOL.com>
Date: Friday, 13 April 2001, at 11:27 p.m.
In Response To: Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Nick
Millman)
Rensei Hikotai is translated as:
Specialist Advanced Flying Training Unit
Page 164 in the "The Japanese Air Forces in World War II."
Arms and Armor Press - Hippocrene Books Inc
Also on Page 45 in "Emblems of the Rising Sun" by Peter Scott, translated as - Fighter Operational Training Units.
Re: A Step further............
Posted By: Allan Alsleben <Wildcat42@AOL.com>
Date: Friday, 13 April 2001, at 11:55 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Rensei Hikotai (Allan
Alsleben)
Rensei Hikotai (FRL) - Advanced Air Training Unit
Kyoiku Hikotai (FRK) - Air Training Unit
Both of these types of units were in the Thai-Burma Area, and later in French Indo-China. An FRL was also at Matsuyama (Taipei), most notably the 37th FRL flying Ki 61.
Re: Rensei Hikotai
Posted By: Larry deZeng <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, 14 April 2001, at 3:59 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Rensei Hikotai *No Text* (Larry
deZeng)
I just wanted to say that insert change page 137 (10 May 45) to SRH-258 (Top Secret/Ultra) "Japanese Army Air Forces Order-of-Battle 1945", co-authored by the U.S. Army Signals Intelligence Service and Special Branch/Military Intelligence Service, War Department, WashDC, which totals some 700+ pages and disects the JAAF in ways you can't even begin to imagine, gives the definition of Rensei Hikotai as "Operational Training Unit", as opposed to Kyoiku Hikotai or "Training Flying Unit". Over the years I have found the definitions in this document to be considerably superior to those in the Hippocrene reference, although it should be pointed out that the former renders Japanese into U.S. terminology while the latter does so in RAF terminology. However, by joint U.K./U.S. agreement reached in June 1942, the U.S. was designated the OPR for all intelligence collection in the Pacific while the U.K. fulfilled that role in the European theater. So perhaps U.S. definitions should prevail in the case of the JAAF and
JNAF.
Re: Rensei Hikotai
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Sunday, 15 April 2001, at 1:23 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Rensei Hikotai (Larry
deZeng)
Actually the term Operational Training Unit, or OTU, is standard RAF nomenclature and would have been instantly understood by RAF personnel; whereas the "Hippocrene" (UK) book translates Rensei Hikotai as "Specialist Advanced Flying Training Unit".
I'm not so sure about either of these interpretations. I'm more interested in the direct Japanese meaning than the UK/US "definitions". As Hikotai translates into "Flying Unit" what does "Rensei" actually mean?
Re: Rensei Hikotai
Posted By: Larry deZeng <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 15 April 2001, at 6:19 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Rensei Hikotai (Nick
Millman)
Your point is well taken. Nailing down and standardizing various definitions can be a complex problem from a number of angles. Should the Japanese words be given a meaning that was current in the 1941-45 context or in a present-day context? Should the assigned definition favor a U.K. meaning or a U.S. meaning? Should the Japanese Kanji be translated into English by a native Japanese or by a native Westerner fluent in Japanese? I have been told by a number of bi-lingual translators that it is extremely difficult to read and translate the Japanese in use by the Japanese military during the war due to special meanings and usages assigned to certain words. In fact, some maintain that only a veteran Japanese officer who served during that period can really do the translating with any accuracy. That may be urban myth, but I think there's something to it. If it is true that various Kanji combinations can mean different things and in different degrees, then who has the final say on a translation and definition?
The word "Rensei"
Posted By: Uchida, Katsuhiro <2000gt-b@mui.biglobe.ne.jp>
Date: Sunday, 15 April 2001, at 4:10 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Rensei Hikotai (Nick
Millman)
The character "Ren" is from "Renshuu" (training), and "Sei" is from
"Kansei" (complete).
But I have to say that I have started to learn about the Army air units TODAY (sorry!), so there may be some proper translated words...
BTW, I have been looking for the proper Japanese words for the English words "Task Force". Basically, the words are translated as "Kido Butai (for "Carrier Force")" or "Ninmu Butai (for "Non-carrier Naval Force")". ("Ninmu Butai" is direct translation, so the words still confuses some Japanese, I think.
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Antonio Veiga <aveiga@airtel.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 April 2001, at 5:54 p.m.
In Response To: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
I´ve found a beatifull painting regarding this unit in the J-aircraft Art Gallery of this very same website:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/artwork/james_holloway/ki61_by_james_holloway.htm
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: James Holloway <fholl46282@aol.com>
Date: Monday, 16 April 2001, at 1:14 a.m.
In Response To: Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
Sir, thank you for the comments on the Ki 61 painting, though I had supplied a bad photo to be posted, the original was destroyed in moving. This was the unit based at Maran Airbase, Java. Tho it's hard to see in the photo there are three Kanji on the nse that reads I BU KI, all planes of this unit named after mountains in Japan. The names also appear in red on the wheel chocks. The planes were painted or sprayed in an irregular pattern so that they looked solid from far away. I think near the end, this unit was mostly grounded due to engine problems and lack of spare parts.
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: Antonio Veiga <aveiga@airtel.net>
Date: Monday, 16 April 2001, at 2:15 p.m.
In Response To: Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 (James Holloway)
Not at all.Thanks to you.Your artwork deserves not only my comments but more.
I always enjoy with them, got all your Ki-61 pics (and
expect your next one). :).Thanks again.
You said in your post:"The planes were painted or sprayed in an irregular pattern so that they looked solid from far away".
Are you sure about this stating?.I mean, may this irregular pattern could be due to weathering of solid colors?.You know solid colors rapidly broke down in japanese aircrafts.
Do you know what the original color was?.Was it dark green
or brown?
Is it possible you send me a copy of the photo you mentioned?.
Have you got more photos about this
sentai?
Re: 18th sentai Ki-61
Posted By: James Holloway <fholl46282@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 17 April 2001, at 11:45 p.m.
In Response To: Re: 18th sentai Ki-61 (Antonio
Veiga)
Sir, again thank you for your compliments. I am sure about the finish, it has been twice translated to me as being " dabbed on" and the technique very effectively demonstrated on my forehead. There are photos of at least five or six planes whose names are known, all showing this finish. The plane, I BU KI, that I painted had an axtremely weathered finish. I will scan you a closeup to your address as I can't see to post photos on this board. A really neat Ki61 is coming. a plane I've searched for, for more than 15 years.
Posted By: Nelson <Rabbo28717@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 15 March 2001, at 7:03 p.m.
In Reference to the Hasegawa Ki-61 Tei just released....is this a Long or Short nosed varient......Where in the chain does the Tony start having the long noses ? (Ki-61d ? ).......and is the correct order Ko,Otsu,Kai,Tei..and is this the equivilent of A-B-C-D.....
Re: Ki-61 Tei....Long or Short Nosed ?
Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Friday, 16 March 2001, at 12:22 a.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 Tei....Long or Short Nosed ? (Nelson)
First your answer:
The Tei variant, as represented by Hasegawa is a "long nosed" variant in the Ki 61-I series. Thugh it has the same engine than preceeding variants. this was due to an in depth re-arrangement of the armament (and partly to the effort to simplify greatly the components of the plane for faster assembly and easier maintenance).
Now the key to operational variants of ki 61-I (don't miss the "I" Roman number):
"Short nosed" variants:
Ki 61-I Ko (a) was the original plane with fully retractable tail wheel and two 7.7 mm light machine gun armament in the wings and two synchronized 12.7 mm in the fuselage forward decking.
Next came the Ki 61-I Otsu variant. As it was found the armament was too loght againstt allied planes and the tail wheel retraction mechanism was unreliable, the plane was modified accordingly. Two 12.7 mm heavy machine guns replaced the wing 7.7 mm ones with associated modifications of the buges on the wings and the tail wheel well was faired over and blocked in "down" position (but the mecahnism was still there).
The Ki 61-I Hei was an even heavier armed variant. Its story began when a number of German made Mauser MG 151/20, 20 mm cannons where imported in Japan by submarines. Apparently it was built in conjuction with the Otsu variant on Kawasaki lines but some "conversion kits" were directly sent to New Guinea. In this variant, the wing machine guns were replaced by Mauser cannons with associated modifications.
The next variant was an in depth revision of the plane aimed to simplify assembly and maintenance and use only Japanesse parts including armament. The forward fuselage was elongated just after the exhaust line and forward of the windscreen to make place for the installation of Japanese Ho5 20 mm cannon in fuselage decking (the Mauser source has dried out). In the wings the 12.7 mm machine guns returned in a similar arrangement as found on the Otsu. This was the Ki 51-I Tei (d) variant...
Most of the Ko, Otsu and Hei planes found their place fighting over New Guinea though some were retained in Japan.
These ones (mainly and by far Otsu and Hei) eventually found their way to the special attack Chutais of Home defense. Often devoid of armament as they were destined to ram the B 29's and needed the maximum altitude and speed capabilities to reach their target (notice this tactic was not properly suicidal, the trick was to "land" on the B 29 then to parachute yourself... Some pilots did that more than once and survived ! ...).
On the contrary very few Tei were sent to New Guinea and most of them were used as home defense fighters in the classical way (though some finally ended in special attack Chutais or units).
The Tei should not be confused with later Ki 61-II which had een longer nose but a completely revised airframe and a new, more powerful engine.
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 23 January 2001, at 1:27 p.m.
I just picked up the No. 16 (Dec/Jan) issue of Aero Journal from Belgium. It has an article on Teruhiko Kobayashi of the 244th Sentai. The colour profiles of his Ki
61s show a/c numbers 24, 33, 88 and 295. They all show the venturi on the port side with the exception of the Ki 61-1 Otsu number 24 on 22 December 1944. Is this correct? From the photos I have seen, I thought that it was only present on one a/c (24 I believe).
The article seems interesting, given my limited French language skills. This issue is good for Luftwaffe fans as well, having a large article on the Arado 234 which is translated into English in an insert.
I will try to have the Kobayashi article translated into English and make it available to whoever wants it.
Correction
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 23 January 2001, at 1:31 p.m.
In Response To: Kobayashi and Aero Journal No. 16 (Grant
Goodale)
Oops! It appears that there is a Belgian version but Aero Journal is published in France
Re: Kobayashi's Ki-61s
Posted By: David_Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 23 January 2001, at 2:42 p.m.
In Response To: Correction (Grant
Goodale)
Kobayashi had five Ki-61s:
1. "295" "serial 3295" had five kills without a venturi
2. "24" which had 6 kills to 14 kills without/then with a venturi
3. "Bar 24" which had four kills without a venturi
4. "87" with 14 kills without a venturi
5. "unknown number" Ki-61 with double white stripe/14 kills/with
venturi.
He flew other numbered aircraft but they were not his personal mounts.
Re: Kobayashi's Ki-61s
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tuesday, 23 January 2001, at 6:54 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Kobayashi's Ki-61s
(David_Aiken)
The article is written by Yasuho Izawa but there is no indication of who did the artwork. The first two colour profiles are for Takeda at Hamamatsu (end of 1944) and Kanano at Chofu (Dec 1944). The Kobayashi profiles are as follows:
1. "Bar 24" in mottle camo, white fuselage band, yellow stripe, no venturi and 4 kill marks (one full and three shared). Hamamatsu, Dec 22, 1944.
2. "295" in mottle camo, red fuselage band, blue stripe over white stripe, venturi with 6 kill marks (five full and one shared). Chofu, beginning of 1945.
3. "24" in mottle camo, blue fuselage band and stripe, venturi, 14 kill marks - 11 B-29s, 1 B-29 crossed with an a/c and two single engine a/c. Chufo, July 1945. There is also a white kanji inscription on the tail which has been translated as "sur de vaincre" which would probably loosely translate into "We shall overcome", I think.
Posted By: Tatsuhiro Higuchi <higumail@green.ocn.ne.jp>
Date: Monday, 8 January 2001, at 9:14 a.m.
I got some informations about Kobayashi's Ki-61(244th
Sentai).
1/ About Venturi attached left side of cockpit(#24 and #unknown--> used between Feb 1945 to 12 Apl 1945 or Mar 1945).
Now this venturi is guessed that used for preproduction of new giro powerd gunsight called "me101". Also Capt. Shouno's No. 88 Ki-61 was attached this
venturi.
2/ Drop tanks paintig about #24 at 19 Mar 1945.
This #24 was painted kanji-word "Hisshou" on rudder by CO. Kobayashi own. Also front of drop tanks were painted same word as follows.
Right tank front--> was painted Kanji-character "Hitsu". Equal upper character on rudder.
Left tank front--> was painted Kanji-character "Shou". Equal under character on rudder. "Hisshou" means never fail to do win. Until end of WWII, Japanese had wrote and read right to left in case of lateral use.
3/ Friend discernment color on front edge of wing about #24 at 19 Mar 1945.
Only at that point, CO. Kobayashi repainted discerment color yellow to red.
These are based on survivor speaking of 244th sentai especially Mr. Mitani maintenance unit's leader. About venturi, this is a guess by practical hardware at ending of WWII.
Sorry, if you already know.
Re: Some info about Kobayashi's Ki-61
*PIC*
Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
Date: Monday, 8 January 2001, at 3:07 p.m.
In Response To: Some info about Kobayashi's Ki-61
(Tatsuhiro Higuchi)
Thank you very much for the information on Kobayashi´s Hiens, it´s all very interesting and new to me. Finally we have an answer to the venturi question!
Did Mitani-san mention the Ki-100´s flown by Kobayashi at all?
Here´s a pic of "Hissho" being painted on the tail. Enjoy!
Editors Note: Picture not reproduced here
IJA & IJN central agreement.
Posted By: Tatsuhiro Higuchi <higumail@green.ocn.ne.jp>
Date: Saturday, 20 January 2001, at 8:29 p.m.
In Response To: Some info about Kobayashi's Ki-61
(Tatsuhiro Higuchi)
A document existed IJA and IJN central agreement about friend discerment of warplanes dated 21 Aug 1942.
1. Airclagt with camouflage paint.
Hinomaru on side fuselage:
Hinomaru on white square( or more 75mm from Hinomaru edge ) or Hinomaru with white border( 75mm ).
IFF stripe:
Yellow.
2. With out camouflage paint.
IFF stripe:
Yellow or Red.
These were mere principle. Many exception were existed.
Posted By: jose luis fauste
Date: Wednesday, 3 January 2001, at 11:22 a.m.
I need information regarding the operational use, including units, colors and markings of any Ki-61-II Kai (Ha-140 engine) with standard canopy (not tear drop
canopy). I have photos of two differents a/c of this type, the first one is an a/c all metal with a large red? "17" on the tail and other also all metal finished with a small japanese character also on the tail. Both photo seems to be taken after the war and the second a/c was at the States and in both cases seems no operational a/c. Please can anyone help me with info about this "Tony" subtype?
Re: KI-61-II KAI INFO
Posted By: Mike Quan <MnkQuan@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wednesday, 3 January 2001, at 2:11 p.m.
In Response To: KI-61-II KAI INFO NEED (jose luis
fauste)
According to the latest 72nd kit release from FineMolds, the instructions to kit FP19 - Kawasaki Ki-61-II Kai "Fastback" Tony, say that the natural metal finish aircraft bearing either a large red "17" or a large black "10" on the vertical fin were from the Imperial Japanese Army Air Evaluation Department at Fussa Air Base, Mainland Japan. The natural metal finish aircraft with a stylized red 'eagle' marking on the tail is a presumptuous marking of the IJA 56th Air Regiment. Since production was limited to just 99 examples as a result of engine difficulties, the Ki-61-II as used by the 56th was deployed in defense of the Osaka, Kobe and Nagoya areas only.
Re: KI-61-II KAI INFO
Posted By: Larry deZeng <Hldeziv@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 3 January 2001, at 3:27 p.m.
In Response To: Re: KI-61-II KAI INFO (Mike
Quan)
According to my data, the 56th Hiko Sentai operated the Ki-61-II only between May and August 1945. During that period it was based at Itami AB in Hyogo Prefecture, 8.5 miles NW of Osaka. The Sentai commander was Major Haruyoshi FURUKAWA and the Hikotai commander was Capt. Noboru NAGASUE. On 1 July 1945 it came under 11th Air Division/6th Air Army and reported a total of 22 Ki-61-IIs serviceable. As stated by Mike Quan, it belonged to the air defense forces covering Central Honshu.
Posted By: Russ <rmfield@gte.net>
Date: Thursday, 28 December 2000, at 6:36 p.m.
I'm looking at the instructions for a 1/72 DML kit (#5021)of an IJA Type 3 Ki61-1. The kit offers two subjects, one fromt he 244th Sentai (April, 1945) and the other from the Chinese Nationalist Gov't AF, 18th Fighter Squadron, 6th F/BG, Beijing, 1945.
Both the cockpit and wheel wells are called out as RLM 79 "sandy brown". Is this correct for either subjects offered? Is it correct for both?
Re: IJA Type 3 Ki61-1 Tony interior colors ...
Posted By: Mike Quan <MnkQuan@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Friday, 29 December 2000, at 6:03 p.m.
In Response To: IJA Type 3 Ki61-1 Tony interior colors ... (Russ)
Although no professed expert, previous discussion about Tony interior colors indicates that this shade is close. Some modelers prefer a slightly 'brighter' shade of yellow-tan, as indicated in the Maru Mechanic Illustrated for the Tony.
Ki61-1 colors, part 2 ...
Posted By: Russ <rmfield@gte.net>
Date: Thursday, 28 December 2000, at 6:41 p.m.
Sorry; forgot to ask: I think the underside is NMF, but the topside is hard to tell if it's supposed to be "IJA Gray" or NMF (the illustrations show IJA Green mottling and the color illustrations look either gray or silver - can't tell).
Re: Ki61-1 colors, part 2 ...
Posted By: Mike Quan <MnkQuan@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Friday, 29 December 2000, at 6:06 p.m.
In Response To: Ki61-1 colors, part 2 ... (Russ)
NMF. All control surfaces in light green-gray.
Posted By: Andrew Johnson <ajo@ceh.ac.uk>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 4:46 a.m.
I am detailing my Hasegawa 1/48 Ki-61 and noticed there are a number of bumps on fuselage spine, wings and tail which must represent the nav. lights. Do you think this interpretation would be correct:
Wings upper and lower green/red, or would lower be clear?
Spine - clear
Either side of tail clear or white?
Re: Ki-61 navigation lights
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 8:45 a.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 navigation lights (Andrew Johnson)
For the wing lights, the Japanese used blue and red rather than green and red. As for the others, I would guess that they would be clear but it is only a guess.
Re: Ki-61 navigation lights
Posted By: François P. WEILL <frpawe@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 10:03 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 navigation lights (Grant
Goodale)
I have often read what you wrote in your message.
My guess is the lamps used for the wings were perhaps deliberately fed under their nominal voltage for sake of duration ... If so, considering that they were to be important only at night the left red cover with a yellower than usual glow will result in a more orange shade with no risk of mistake but an eventual green cover over a lamp emitting too much yellow color might be confused with an almost yellow signal (the more you add yellow to green, the more the resulting green closes to a yellow color). Using a blue cover combined with a yellow emitting lamp will result in a true green color... With no risk of mistake...
I don't know if my explanations correct but for me at all it makes sense.
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 4:09 a.m.
The preliminary result by Don MARSH to reveal the exact nature and details of the No. 68 Hiko Sentai kill marking appearing on the Kawasaki Ki-61 Tony s/n 263 discovered on Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island in 1943 appears below. He did a painstaking analysis of the original photo, including a large blow-up and a pixel by pixel examination. If a clear photograph of this marking appears anywhere, please forward to Don.
Don's letter:
"I have been doing a bit of research into that 68 FR marking but haven't found anything that I find a satisfying answer yet. The more more I look at it, the more I start to wonder if it isn't an eagle. Although, if it is a stylized bird of prey, I think it more likely to be a hawk (taka) because I've never heard of eagles being used as a motif in old Japan, while hawks are a very prevalent motif, especially among military men.
Curiously, it seems it was uncommon to depict a hawk; rather, it was much more common to depict hawk feathers. These motifs were especially popular during the Edo Period. The feather crests were classified into more than 10 different catigories according to number of feathers &
their arrangement.
As mentioned above, I'm starting to wonder if this design isn't an eagle (or hawk), because I've done as accurate a depiction as I can of this mark in an effort to get a better look at it. In doing so, I now do not believe it is a crane (and definitly not an ax), but it does look rather 'bird of
preyish.'"
Editors note: The picture is not reproduced here
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 1:43 p.m.
In Response To: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
*PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
there are two (?) photos of this airplane in MA 428 p.166. Pilot's name is Tarui (?) Yoshimitsu. (Higuchi san, tetsudate kudasai).
Please compare it with the marking in p.10 of MA 329 of Adachi Takeo (the red "bird" followed with the 12.18).
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 10:59 a.m.
In Response To: (Elephtheriou George)
Thanks for the info. I don't have MA #428 so I can't comment on that one. However, I do have MA #329 and the ilustration on pg 10, while being an eagle like birk, is not the same mark. I have seen the photo of this particular a/c shown in several sources, but it has always been the same shot.
Is there any information that may be translated regarding the mark in question other than the pilot's name; i.e. regarding the mark specifically?
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 11:35 a.m.
In Response To: (Don Marsh)
unfortunately nothing is writen about the marking and it's not even shown in the plane's profile.
I'm not suggesting that the marking on Tarui's (?) plane is exactly the same with that of Adachi's but I think it's the same design more stylised.
A special question for you (please forgive my ignorance): are there (or were) eagles in Japan?
And I would like to ask about the killing markings usualy seen on Nates and Shokis that depict a bird very much like a German WW1 eagle or (indriguing thought?) a Russian Tsarist eagle. Any reasoning for using this marking and what exactly is it depicting?
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 4:23 p.m.
In Response To: (Elephtheriou George)
Of course, I think this question would be best answered by our friends actually living in Japan, whom I would love to hear from on this matter.
Basd on my research of several years, I have never found eagles mentioned in a classical Japanese context, while falcons and especially hawks (taka) are quite common & abundant in Japanese lore & art, even today. I have a friend in our local model club who's parents are from Japan, and the family still uses their family crest of crossed hawk feathers in a ring. In fact, my friend uses this mon on his business card. The crossed hawk feathers in a ring dates back at least to the 16th century being the crest of Asano, daimios of Aki. The hawk was a common motif of the warrior class (as one might suspect a bird of prey to be) being considered the most intrepid bird of prey... I'll dig a bit deeper on the notion of eagles in Japan.
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 6:10 p.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking (Don Marsh)
just a thought... If I was an American I would use Hinomarus or Swastikas for my kill markings (anything else of my personal taste too, ofcourse). If I was a German, I would use RAF colors, stars and little bears (okay, I'm joking here). If I was a Japanese? There are many markings but what's the American "symbol" that would look cool and unusual on my plane? I don't think I would like to paint Bisons or grizzly bears. How about an eagle?
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 7:35 p.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
(Elephtheriou George)
Good point, and I think quite valid. I'm fairly sure I have somewhere seen what was suppose to be a representation of American eagles painted on the side of Japanese a/c for kill marks (such as portrayed on pg 10 of MA #329). Shooting (or ramming) down "American Eagles" seems a very logical euphemism under the circumstances.
But the Japanese didn't seem to be as consistent as the Germans or Americans with the markings used for air victories. I've seen Japanese a/c sporting victory marks of: various planes, planes with lightning bolts through them, planes crossed out, wings, various birds, cherry blossoms, mums, various types of stars, stars & bars etc... I've even seen photos showing Japanese flags being painted on the side of a Tony (KKF Illustrated #80, pg's 82-84), which makes it look as if this Japanese a/c shot down 3 of his own planes.
Also, I still haven't dismissed the idea that the marking in question may be a personal insignia or unit device. Especially considering its style, location and the fact that it is a stand-alone mark. Whatever it is, it sure is an attractive design.
Re: No.68 FR Marking: May Be Capt. TAKEUCHI, Shogo
*PIC*
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 19 November 2000, at 7:32 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking (Don Marsh)
Larry HICKEY just sent me an e-mail which supports one of your speculations as follows:
"I probably have some insight into the markings under the cockpit window on the "Cape Gloucester" Tony. I believe aircraft #263 was the personal a/c of the 2nd Chutai, 68th Sentai CO, Capt. TAKEUCHI Shogo.
This a/c was assessed u/s at CG on 8/4/43. I believe the broad white band around the fuselage designated the Chutai CO. TAKEUCHI was the 2nd Chutai CO from 12/42 until he was killed on 12/21/43, in a landing accident. One source indicated that he had 19 victories. Other information says that he flew 90 sorties in NG and had 16 kills and 10 probables. The marking under the cockpit window (see below, by Don MARSH) would have been his personal emblem, rather than a kill marking, as there would be quite a row of them by August if it was, in fact, a kill marking."
Lawrence J. HICKEY,
President
International Research & Publishing Corporation,
Boulder, Colorado
Editors note: The picture is not reproduced here
Re: No.68 FR Marking: May Be Capt. TAKEUCHI, Shogo
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Sunday, 19 November 2000, at 10:25 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No.68 FR Marking: May Be Capt. TAKEUCHI, Shogo
*PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
Thank you for sharing this information with me. I'm delighted to get expert endorsment of my speculation. Not only do I believe that this was a personal marking, but that it wasn't the pilot's family mark, but one he adopted for use as his personal military mark. This practice was not uncommon in Japan. Samurai tradition often allowed for several personal marks, each to be used for specialized purposes appropriate to certain circumstances. In this case, the martial crest of the "arawasi" (violent eagle) seems quite appropriate, especially considering TAKEUCHI's record.
Re: 68 Sentai Ki-61 is Capt. TAKEUCHI, Shogo
Posted By: David_Aiken <David_Aiken@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 19 November 2000, at 9:09 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No.68 FR Marking: May Be Capt. TAKEUCHI, Shogo
*PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
Larry Hickey visited me in the mid-1980s and offered to purchase my collection. At that point he borrowed a document which confirmed that the 68 Sentai Ki-61 captured was flown by Captain Takeuchi.
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 7:59 p.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking (Don Marsh)
I'm with you in this and believe that we need the help of Nihonjin (Japanese people).
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 November 2000, at 12:35 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
(Elephtheriou George)
I too, do not know wheterh this is a kill mark or what, but I'm more curious what makes you want to rule out eagles so much? There are eagles in Japan, and IJAAF/IJNAF planes were advertised to the Japanese as "Rikuwashi (Land Eagles)" and "Umiwashi(Sea Eagles)" {Rikushu, Kaishu are the same things}. The 64th Sentai when they were using ki27s drew adopted a red eagle on the fuselage (right beneath the cockpit) and tha's definitely a eagle because the words to the 64th Sentai song (after they switched to ki43s) refer to the "hinomarus painted on our wings and the red eagle we carry in our hearts" .
If it was a personal marking, it is possible that the plane belonged to pilots who were transfered from the 64th? (There were, in fact, several pilots who were). Just a possibility anyway.
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Tatsuhiro Higuchi <higumail@green.ocn.ne.jp>
Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 8:29 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)
Well, let me see...In those days, eagle was a popular emblem of pilots as Mr. Takeuchi said. Indeed, army pilots sewn eagle badge on right chest of winter, summer or tropical uniform. The eagle was made up gold braid on light blue felting. In my option, the marking was personal mark...?
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2000, at 9:44 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
(Tatsuhiro Higuchi)
I've been rather busy and so haven't had the time to do more extensive research into the 68 FR bird marking. The posting of my artwork and the subsequent discussion has taken us down a path concerning the role eagle have played in the history of Japan. While I have been otherwise occupied, others have been busy on this subject.
I wish to thank Hiroyuki Takeuchi for his information on the "Rikuwashi (Land Eagles)" and "Umiwashi (Sea Eagles)" and Tatsuhiro Higuchi for the information is his posting.
Also, I would like to thank George Elephtheriou for providing me with the following fascinating information about the Eagles in Japan, and give special thanks to his in-laws in Japan whom provided this information...
Eagles existed and still exist in Japan The word for eagle is "wasi." Nowadays, because there are very few, it's a protected species. Some years ago when they wanted to make a park in a forest in Nagoya, they found that eagles were living there, so they didn't make the park but instead they preserved the forest. "Taka" (falcon) is a very old bird in Japan and at the age of Tokugawa and other, it was used for handing, called "takagari". Nowadays, people who practice the same sport, call it
"takasho".
During the war, the pilots of Fighter units (sentoki) were called "arawasi" (violent eagle). And there was a song about the pilots that included the word "wasi". Unfortunately, she can't remember the song but it may have include words like: "fight like eagles to protect your country".
I believe that the marking at the side of the Hien in question, is an eagle similar to the Adachi pilot but more stylized.
I concur with with George's final analysis that this design is an eagle. l also agree with Tatsuhiro Higuchi that the mark in question is a personal mark. Of course, I'll continue my quest to solve the mystery of this devise until my heart is satisfied beyond doubt, but thank all for their contributions to this quest.
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <bsanborn@psemc.com>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 11:41 a.m.
In Response To: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
*PIC* (James F. Lansdale)
Nice work!!!
Question (and/ thought)? Is it really a kill marking or a personal emblem (or both)? Are we applying cultural bias to what it's purpose is?
Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 11:13 a.m.
In Response To: Re: No. 68 Hiko Sentai Kill Marking (Bill Sanborn)
While calling it a" kill mark" that is but for the sake of having something to call it. I am not operating on the assumption that it is in fact a kill marking. I too have entertained the notion that this may be a personal marking right from the start. For my purposes though, it is a mute point, for the symbol if culturally historic will still represent the same thing in its design context (as opposed to military). This mark does clearly follow Japanese tradition of personal mark design in proportion, composition & style. But it is more unique than many other marks that I have studied and so far has obstinately defied categorization. Of course I wil continue to work on this (as I am obsessive) and will share whatever information I gleen with all of you.
I welcome all theories or ideas any may have to contribute.
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Friday, 13 October 2000, at 11:25 p.m.
In short, no, I don't have an FS number for the brown on this a/c. With one poor b&w photo and questionable notes to go on for this a/c, no one can say you painted it the wrong color. But in an attempt to be of more help than that...
While Nakajima, Mitsubishi & Kawasaki did apply a factory brown finish on some a/c in 1944, it seems fairly obvious that this bird is wearing a field applied paint job. Any attempt to put an FS number to this particular a/c would be pure conjecture. Therefore, since this appears to be a field applied finish, I think it would be safe to use whatever brown you "feel" is closest to "Chocolate Bar Brown," as it was refered to in the original notes, as nebulous as that is.
James Lansdale is the expert on these matters, you may want to run it past him. Jim is currently examining various extant relics in an effort to nail down the standard for factory applied IJAAF brown finishes, but hasn't made an offical determination as of yet. When I last spoke to Jim on this issue he said the closest general description of the brown a/c captured at Clark Field in Feb '45 is 'Japanese Army helmet brown.' (note: This Ki-61 was a Chofu based a/c, not Clark based.)
Additional Info:
* Educated conjecture on the part of Mr Lansdale seems to place the factory browns in the range between FS 30118 and FS 20095 leaning toward the latter.
* MODELART #533 gives FS 33105, FS 30118 & FS 34087 as "dark brown"
* OWAKI San's research claims FS 30062 as "Dark Chocolate Brown."
Re: Ki-61 I Tony "Clover-leaf"
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 11:47 a.m.
There is only one photo of this very curiously marked Ki 61 (read below). I will send you a scan. Also, here is a copy of a posting I made here on the j-aircraft
army board back in June of 1999 regarding the markings of this bird...
Many of you are familiar with the existence of one particular Ki 61 aircraft found at Chofu AB; described as a "chocolate bar" brown Tony with white combat stripe & insignia of the 244th Sentai and displaying a large "kelly-green shamrock" on both sides of the fuselage. At issue is the shamrock.
It is my contention that this graphic is not a shamrock [genus trifolium], but is in fact katabami (wood sorrel) [genus oxalis]. Although this plant produces a small five-petaled flower, emblems using this plant as a motif are almost always based on the three-petaled leaf. To western sensibilities this design could easily be mistaken for a three-leaf clover. Wood sorrel was used to make medicinal salves and also to polish bronze mirrors, hence it was also known as kagamigusa (mirror plant). Wood sorrel is almost always portrayed with sword blade devices as part of the design, either appearing tiny and integrated into the central base of the leaf or in larger format between each leaf or both. When appearing with swords separating the leaves, it is called ken katabami (Wood sorrel with swords).
Known as a military crest, Katabami was a common & popular crest with the warrior class, especially in the form of ken-katabami. It is commonly found on weapons, armor etc. of samurai dating back to the Kamakura period (1185-1333).
To my knowledge there is only one photo of this a/c (see: Broken Wings of the Samurai, pg 79 or FAoW #17, pg 82). If this is the only photographic representation of the alleged "shamrock," the angle of the a/c is so oblique that there isn't enough information to do an accurate or authentic representation of this tri-leafed subject. Even Mr. Nohara's excellent art is rough conjecture. One may only say that the a/c had something that looked like a shamrock to westerners (or katabami to a WWII era Nihon-jin?) painted on the fuselage and refer to the photo for approximate scale and location.
There is no explicable rationale for a shamrock to have been displayed on the side of a Japanese aircraft and historians have found this curious since noted in 1945. It is even less likely that this rather un-Japanese symbol would have been employed at such a time of extreme nationalism. Using this same rationale, the historic & culturally popular military image of katabami becomes obvious, especially in regard to a 20th century samurai pilot employing an 800 year old Japanese tradition.
This is an important issue, not just for the purpose of proper historic identification, but to better understand the culture of the time and spirit of the people. It also serves to restore the pilot of this a/c to his heritage, tradition and military lineage rather than project the likely erroneous scenario that he was "borrowing" a european device.
Re: Ki-61 I Tony "Clover-leaf"
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 7:58 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 I Tony "Clover-leaf" (Don Marsh)
Since this posting, I've gone back and revised a few of the other details on my version of this Ki 61. The original notes with the original photo don't seem to mention the color of the "kill markings" and describe the 244 FR tail marking and the combat band as being "white."
Upon closer inspection, I believe the "kill markings' to be white a/c with deep yellow (or possibly light red) arrow bolts going through them. (Compare the kill marks to the shiny natural metal covers just below them.)
As mentioned, though the notes on this a/c say "white", Nohara san attributes yellow to the combat band and yellow with white outline to the tail marking. While the photo gives little to go on, I believe the 244th marking on this a/c to be red with white outline. The detail may be poor in the shot, but it is obvious that the tail marking is an outlined version and the inner area is very dark (compare to the hinomaru...(see: Broken Wings of the Samurai, pg 79 or FAoW #17, pg 82).
Posted By: Zaf
Date: Thursday, 10 December 1998, at 9:33 a.m.
I am building a Ki-61 Hien aircraft model. According to Areomaster decals of
the color of the aircraft is the olive drab color with silver color underneath. Is the Japanese used the olive drab color on its aircrafts?
Thanks
Posted By: Peter Fearis <vms@ti.tuvps.co.uk>
Date: Friday, 11 December 1998, at 5:32 a.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 hien color (Zaf)
Dear Zaf
With reference to the olive drab that you plan to use on your Ki-61. I would like to make the following suggestions for paints that you can use. The first in the list
being the most acceptable match.
Aeromaster Warbird colour number 1097
Humbrol number159
Gunze Sangyo number 52.
Hope this is of some help.
yours sincerely
Peter Fearis.
Re: Ki-61 hien color
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sunday, 13 December 1998, at 7:53 p.m.
In Response To: Ki-61 hien color (Zaf)
If you are building a Hien, there are some photographs of parts of a wrecked Ki100 displayed in Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo. No use in determining the external
colors, but the photos here show the landing gear strut/wheel/tire, armor plate, and propeller blade, and could be interesting.
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~fk7h-tkuc/hp/english/yasukuni.html
Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@mailhost.kani.or.jp>
Date: Saturday, 19 December 1998, at 9:08 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 hien color (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)
Imperial Japanese Army Force's Olive Drave as follows;
Munsell Color from Remark
2.5Y4/3 FS30095
2.5Y3/3 Ki100 Propeller Blade Yasukuni Shrine
2.5Y3/3 Type94 Radio Control Box Nakagawa Collection
2.5Y3/2 Ki61 Electric Control Panel Kakamigahara Aerospace Museum
5Y3/2 Ki67 Fragment Owaki Collection
7.5Y5/4 FS14255/Buff Green
7.5Y4.5/2 Ki45Kai/4065 Fragment Shubudai Memorial,JASDF Iruma
7.5Y3/2 Wooden Drop Tank Nakagawa Collection
7.5Y2/2 FS14087/Olive Drab
These colors were so-called "Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku"(Dark Yellow Green No.7) and used from June 15,1943 to the end of War.
Katsushi Owaki
Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi <hiryu@bigfoot.com>
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998, at 6:35 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab (Katsushi
Owaki)
Owaki-san,
Thank you for the very interesting post.
I have a question that you may be able to clarify for me; were ALL these colors called Oryoku-shoku 7 go (by the way, I don't think oryokushoku would necessarily
tranlsate into DARK yellow green; just o (yellow) ryoku(green), right?), or are you referring to one of the clolors in your list?
The reason I am asking this is because of the rather wide variety of the colors described here, and due to Yoji Watanabe's caption on page 55 of FAOW No.65
(Jul97) regarding Oryokushoku 7 go. Watanabe states that oryokushoku 7 go was the standard color for drop tanks and the color would best be described as a
pale green.
I would appreciate it very much if this point can be clarified.
IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998, at 4:02 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Ki-61 hien color, IJAF Olive Drab (Katsushi
Owaki)
OWAKI-san has contributed greatly to the documentation of the hues of IJAAF olives, browns and greens. His findings have confirmed, reinforced, and
supplemented other research. A comparison of some of his documentation and research compared with color matches to other IJAAF aircraft relics are as follows:
OWAKI-san Research-/-Lansdale Collection
FS-30095-/-FS-30095
2.5Y3/3-/-FS-10059
2.5Y (various)-/-FS-30277
FS-14255-/-FS-14255
FS-24065 (?)-/-FS-34056
FS-14087 (?)-/-FS-24088
7.5Y (various)-/-FS-34094
Other IJA "greens" include FS-16350, FS-24128, and 34092 (which may be a weathered 34094). I am most appreciative of his contribution and sincerely hope
OWAKI-san will continue to post the results of his research to further increase our catalogue of known IJAAF colors.
Jim Lansdale
Re: IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@mailhost.kani.or.jp>
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1998, at 5:32 p.m.
In Response To: IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens (James F. Lansdale)
I am apologizing to my terrible Message Board debut.I am a PC biginner and have to brush up English!!
It is not that Ki45Kai/4065 means FS24065. "4065" is manufacturer's serial number. Also,FS14087 is in my old FS595a which has no FS24088.
Hiroyuki-San, "Genyoh-Ameiro" of IJNAF and "Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku" of IJAAF are two big Mysterys in the Pacific War in my mind. I am just a few steps to the
"Ohryoku 7 Go Shoku". A first step was on page 77 and 80 in MA #428 "Hien/Ki100"(5/94) issue and the second one is on page 55 in FAoW(7/97). Please give
me some more times.
Re: IJAAF Olive Drabs
Posted By: Katsushi Owaki <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Monday, 21 December 1998, at 7:44 p.m.
In Response To: Re: IJAAF Olive Drabs, Browns,and Greens (Katsushi
Owaki)
Hello everyone.This is a some addition for my "Re:Ki-61 hien color,IJAF Olive Drab.
1Y5/5.5.....Khaki
2.5Y4/3.....20095/FS595a
2.5Y3/3.....Type 94 Radio Control Box.......Nakagawa Collection
2.5Y3/3.....Ki100 Propeller
Blade...........Yasukuni Shrine
2.5Y3/2.....Ki61 Electrical Control Panel...Kakamigahara Aerospace Museum
2.5Y3/2.....MA#428/Ki61/Ki100/Ankkashoku(Dark Brown)
5Y3/2.......Ki67............................Owaki Collection
7.5Y5/4.....14255/FS595a/Buff Green
7.5Y4.5/2...Ki45Kai/4065....................Shubudai Memorial,JASDF Iruma
7.5Y3.5/4...Olive
7.5Y3/4.....Ki45Kai/4268....................NASM Silver Hill,refer from "Cockpir Interiors Pt.1 pp.18
7.5Y3/2.5...Wooden Drop Tank................Nakagawa Collection
7.5Y3/2.....Wooden Drop Tank................Nakagawa Collection
7.5Y3/1.5...MA#428/Kokkashoku(Black Brown)
7.5Y3/1.....MA#329/Rikugun Senntoki/Kahki
7.5Y3/1.....MA#395/Ki43/Ankkashoku(Dark Brow)
7.5Y2/2.....ANA504/FS14087
Katusi Owaki
Posted By: Brian Walsh <walshb@emotors.com>
Date: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 11:23 a.m.
Hi everyone, I am a long time Luftwaffe modeler and thought it was time to build some Japanese aircraft. I have found out that the cockpit colors for Japannese
aircraft is not as straight forward as with the Luftwaffe. Could someone please tell me what was the colors of the cockpit, landing gear wells, and the inside of the
gear doors on the Tony?
Thanks in advance and happy modeling.
Brian Walsh
Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony
Posted By: Chris Livingston <chrisatty@hotmail.com>
Date: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:06 p.m.
In Response To: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony (Brian Walsh)
Hi!
Yup, as far as I can tell, it's some shade of tan. However, the primer on our Ki-61 at Weeks has probably color shifted so I wouldn't rely on it for what it really
looked like. Your modeler buds can give you better FS numbers and what not than I can.
Any other details you need, let me know and I'll do my best.
Keep em flying, Chris Livingston
Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony
Posted By: Scott Negron <scott_b_negron@mail.bankone.com>
Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 10:05 a.m.
In Response To: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony (Brian Walsh)
If you are a long time Luftwaffe model builder than you probably already have the right paint. The closest match is RLM 79 (sandbraun). This is the color of the
cockpit and wheel wells/landing gear covers. Some Tonys may have had natural metal wheel wells. The instrument panel is flat black. Do you have an extra DB 605
engine for it? Scott.
Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony
Posted By: Brian Walsh <walshb@emotors.com>
Date: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 10:34 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Help!! Cockpit color of a Tony (Scott
Negron)
Scott,
Thanks for the info, and no I dont have a DB605 engine.
Brian
Posted By: Jeff <chipdog@fuse.net>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 2:37 p.m.
I asked this on another board and got a couple answers. When doing the green dapple (I guess this is what it was called) over metal, should it be airbrushed, brushed on, put on with a q-tip, or what would be correct?
Re: Hein camo
Posted By: Bill Sanborn <lotsabooks@msn.com>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 8:12 p.m.
In Response To: Hein camo (Jeff)
I agree with Chuck and George!
You have lots of options due to the fact that it was done differently in real life. The biggest thing I can add is check your references to see the various "looks".
Re: Hein camo
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <elgeorge@otenet.gr>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 11:40 p.m.
In Response To: Hein camo (Jeff)
Depends on the scale and the type of the plane. Also, the quality of your airbrush and the colors you want to use.
If the plane you are modelling is an army plane, for example, and was painted with brush, then I sugest you use a brush to paint it. If it's a bomber, depents on the quality of your airbrush (and your skill), not to mention the scale.
Sometimes, when I want to paint a brush painted "Tony", I use liquid rubber (sorry, I don't know the english word) to mask the areas I don't want to paint.
What methods have you already used that didn't satisfied you? And what scale do you usually model?
Re: Hein camo
Posted By: Clark Hollis <chollis@stewart.com>
Date: Monday, 25 September 2000, at 3:37 p.m.
In Response To: Hein camo (Jeff)
Hi Jeff,
Let me try to give you a loaded answer to your loaded question. In real life, the camo paint was applied in any one of various ways, which included application by spray gun, paint brush, rags and maybe even brooms! The most common was probably by spray gun (airbrush).
Experiment with paint application on your models to see which method gives you the desired results. You didn't say what scale you are working with. Sometimes, results will be better in the smaller scales, using a hand-brushed application, rather than trying to airbrush it. Whatever looks best to you is the way to do it.
Happy modeling.
Posted By: JC Carbonel <jean-christophe.carbonel@laposte.fr>
Date: Thursday, 31 August 2000, at 7:23 a.m.
I have this one kit for a long time but I can't find any OPERTIONAL picture of the real thing. All the pictures I have seen so far are of the same birdie as gate keeper at an USAAF base in Japan after the war (I think).
Any help someone ?
Re: Tamiya's Ki-61 II
Posted By: Ken Glass <ken.glass@eudoramail.com>
Date: Sunday, 3 September 2000, at 5:21 a.m.
In Response To: Tamiya's Ki-61 II (JC
Carbonel)
Hi JC,
I have a copy of 'Army Fighters Ki 61'. It is no.93 in a series, I can't identify the publisher, but was authored by Watanabe, c.1983. Page 113 has the only photo I have ever seen of a Ki.61 II in IJA use.
The view is in flight, grainy having the appearace of being a still from a film. The plane is over flying a hanger building at low level and slightly banked towards the camera allowing the top side of the right wing and tail plane to be seen. The plane is overall natural metal with brown spinner and black anti-glare panel. The rudder is a lighter shade than the natural metal, likely doped fabric in silver or the IJA light gray-green. The fuselage hinomaru has no white outline. The one on the topside of the wing is obscured by a broad wash of mud spray. The spray is also visible on the forward cowl in front of the exhausts, back to the wing leading edge. It picks up again just ahead of the wing trailing edge almost back to the hinomaru. The discoloration is so dark on the outer tail planes, they appear painted in a dark color. Heavy exhaust staining is visible all along and confined to just the wing root. There may be a yellow (or very dirty white) rear fuselage 'combat stripe' present, but it is hard to tell in the photo. This is a really dirty bird. That said there may be a dark kanji type symbol on the upper rudder, but it could be just dirt.
The visual effect of the wing mud spatter in the b/w photo is similar to a white MiG-3 with red outer wing panels. The demarcation is diagonal on main and tail planes but opposite handed. The main wing spray pattern covers the wing tip inwards as far as the entire aileron and then tapers towards the forward wing leading edge all the way to the root. The spray pattern on the tail plane has a separation line that is again diagonal with all the trailing edge fouled around to about the outer third of the leading edge. The leading edge of the tail plane is clear from the root out to about 2/3 span.
The book cited above has some odd and obscure Tony I/Ki.100 markings. Two photos show variations in spinner decoration I have not seen else where. Page 187 has a photo of likely a kamikaze plane with a light colored spinner (blue?) from base to ahead of the prop cutouts, having a wide white and narrow red ring ending in a blue? tip color. The wing's yellow leading edge stripe is darker than the spinner's main color, hence my guess that it is blue. The effect is similar to that seen on one 53rd Sentai Nick with I believe red, white and brown spinner rings.
Page 66 has a photo of a Tony I with a white spiral just like a Luftwaffe fighter's spinner. Page 195 has the Kobayashi Ki.100 photo with him standing in front of the scoreboard on the left mid fuselage of the plane. I have had this book for 15 years now, hoping more information on these and others would be published in due course. Does anyone else have more recent information, or perhaps other examples?
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>