IJA Colors
 
Topics:
Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray? 
NMF a/c ailerons, etc.
upper surface Blue
JAAF Fuel Tank Color (New)
JAAF Drop Tank color (New)
Akatombo-trainer orange (New)
Dark Blue on JAAF planes (New)
colors on IJA bombers *PIC* (New)
 
Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray?
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <Hall023038@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, 11 August 2001, at 10:31 a.m.
 
Army color number 43 appears on the 2/45 color standard and is labeled tochi iro (earth color). Mr. Owaki measured the chip as around FS 6008, a dark gray. I have no reason to doubt his measurement.
Isn't tochi iro really brown and not gray? Certainly a number of the Model Art specials think it is. Their chips show it in warm browns. Is gray a valid interpretation of the color name in Japan?
What is going on when several chips on the standard do not fit their names? 
 
Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray?
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Saturday, 11 August 2001, at 1:13 p.m.
 
In Response To: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray? (Tom Hall)
 
It's a misprint. The number should be 0080 which is chestnut/tochi brown.
 
Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray?
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <Hall023038@aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, 14 August 2001, at 10:06 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray? (Greg Springer)
 
Interesting. I had not thought of chestnut. That is a different kanji from the two for "ground/earth/soil", a different "tochi". Oh well, if there are no official names on the standard, I can only guess which word Mr. Owaki meant.
 
This returns me to my original question: Is dark gray the standard interpretation in Japan for any term "tochi iro"?
Another tricky item is that on the army palette, according to the 2/45 standard, there is only one dark brown, Number 4, which Mr. Owaki measured as near FS 0111, a maroon-brown. I take it to be the color of props and spinners. Where does that leave us regarding brown army planes circa 1945?
 
Re: Color Standards: The "Browns"
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 8:04 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray? (Tom Hall)
 
There are three "browns" on the Japanese 2/45 Uniform Aircraft Color Standards chart. Presumably, both services used these three "browns" with their "new" uniform numeric codes 3-1, 3-2, and 3-3.
 
One of the uniform standards adopted in February 1945 for both services came from an older IJA color standards whose army number is not now known, (i.e. "new number code" 3-1). As you know, 3-1 was the "older" color known as IJNAF N 0 (FS-20062) or what has sometimes been called "maroon." This color has been found on propeller blades and spinners for both army and naval aircraft.
 
3-2 (FS-30111) IJAAF No.14/IJNAF A 3 was used throughout the war for both services and may have served as the "brown" in the kumogata scheme for IJNAF aircraft. Two samples of this brown have been analyzed. One came from a Betty found on New Guinea and another on a Nell found at Atsugi after the war.
 
3-3 is the color OWAKI-san analyzed as being most like FS-34201, however, with all due respect to OWAKI-san, the color shown on my copy of the 2/45 Standards is more like FS-x6160. This color, known by the IJNAF as I 3 (believed to be the controversial "ameiro" in Yo Ku Report No.0266) has been found on many aircraft relics from both services (including several aircraft types produced by Kawasaki for the IJA and several aircraft types produced by Nakajima for the IJN). Therefore, it too is very likely to have had an older army color standards number not presently known.
 
Much confusion exists between the descriptive terms used for such colors and the color as interpreted by viewers!
 
My copy of the 2/45 Color Standards has no descriptive terms in English or Kanji, only the uniform numeric descriptors (e.g. 2-1, 3-3, 5-1, etc) are found above each color chip. The 1- series are the "greens;" 2-, the "grays;" 3-, the "browns;" 4-, the "yellows;" 5-, the "reds;" and 6-, the "blues." My copy does not have the color samples for 7-1 (black), 8-1 (white), or 9-1 (silver).
 
Re: Color Standards: The "Browns"
>
Posted By: Tom Hall <Hall023038@aol.com><
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 5:27 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Color Standards: The "Browns" (James F. Lansdale)
 
Thanks for your reply, but we are getting rather far afield from my question.
 
Yes, I noted 3~1, a navy color, N0, but as I understand Mr. Owaki's transcription, that color was unique to the navy as of 2/45 and I'm talking about army.
What is interesting to me, besides trying to understand Japanese color words, is that the 2/45 standard does not seem to have anything in the range of FS 0097, 3105 and 0118 for the army.
 
Re: Color Standards:P.S.
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 16 August 2001, at 5:57 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Color Standards: The "Browns" (Tom Hall)
 
You also wrote,"What is interesting to me, besides trying to understand Japanese color words, is that the 2/45 standard does not seem to have anything in the range of FS 0097, 3105 and 0118 for the army."
 
Actually three separate issues cloud the study of IJAAF colors and the colors which actually appeared on the 2/45 Color Standards.
 
1) Although it is clear that there were "official" color standards for IJAAF, for the first three years or so of WW II, the JAAF persisted in frequently applying field finishes to their aircraft and to cover whatever factory finish the aircraft was delivered in. Undoubtedly many "non-official" colors were used.
 
2) Many older IJAAF "official" colors were dropped by 2/45, which may have included the colors you cited.
 
3) As you have so also noted in the "Asahi Journal," the original paint colors applied to the aircraft may have shifted over time due to chemical breakdown and/or weathering of the paints. Bleed through of two or more layers of paint would also have been a factor Therefore, no one can really "know" what the original colors truly were on application. We only know the color of the relics today and try to work backward in time as to the original color!
 
Re: Japanese Aircraft Color Standards
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 7:03 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Color Standards: The "Browns" (Tom Hall)
 
The Uniform Japanese Aircraft Color Standards of 2/45 was an attempt on the part of military authorities to simplify/coordinate and make uniform the army and navy aircraft colors from other pre-existing service specific color standards and their respective numbering systems.
 
1)There were several other color standards published and used by the IJA and IJN prior to 2/45.
 
2) Not all the previous army and navy colors are known by their respective code number.
 
3) Some previously used colors were unique to each service.
 
4) Some colors were not carried over to the Uniform Japanese Aircraft Color Standards of 2/45.
 
Your questions cannot be easily answered until the research reveals more information. And, perhaps, some of these answers will never be forth-coming!
 
When OWAKI-san placed asteriks in his posting it was due to the fact that these numbers are/were not known at the time of his posting, if they did in fact exist! What is known is that some of these blanks (asteriks) had a numeric coding which has, in some cases, been recovered. Some are now known, others are not!
 
These prior color standard systems in official use, prior to 2/45, consisted of arabic numerals for the IJA and an alpha-numeric system for the IJN. Sometimes the color/s used by th two services were the same and other colors were not. That was the reason for the joint IJA/N meeting/conference which resulted in the 2/45 Color Standards system as published by OWAKI-san. Much more research is needed before all the blanks can be filled in prior to 2/45.
 
I urge you to contact OWAKI-san directly since he is now pursuing the color quest on his own and our respective research efforts are independent. For now, the research group I am working with is utilizing archival material and research which will be incorporated into a work in progress.
 
Only OWAKI-san may comment on what he meant by his posting. I can only quote what our research group has discovered.
 
Further, you write, "What is interesting to me, besides trying to understand Japanese color words, is that the 2/45 standard does not seem to have anything in the range of FS 0097, 3105 and 0118 for the army."
 
The official sources/standards DID NOT use descriptive terms (other than in Yo Ku Report No.0266)! The official sources contained color chips with a numbering system. The names given to these color standards appear to have come into use after the war by various authors and other IJA/NAF "authorities."
 
The Federal Standards (FS 595 B) system of colors is very limited and the best color system to use for true color comparisons to the existing original chips is the Munsell system (as also used by OWAKI-san, MIKESH, et al). You should compare all your color analyses to this system as well.
 
Have you seen an original copy of the original Color Standards of 2/45? If not, again, I urge you to contact OWAKI-san directly. He is the leading Japanese authority on this subject.
 
Re: Japanese Aircraft Color Standards
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <Hall023038@aol.com>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 10:21 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Japanese Aircraft Color Standards (James F. Lansdale)
 
I think at least one of my questions can be answered easily, but by a Japanese person. It is whether "tochi iro" is usually considered to be dark gray. I welcome the interpretations of Japanese other than Mr. Owaki; I already have Mr. Owaki's interpretation.
 
No, I have not seen this standard. Would you be kind enough to post you copy of it here for all of us to see?
 
Re: Japanese Aircraft Color Standards
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 16 August 2001, at 5:24 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Japanese Aircraft Color Standards (Tom Hall)
 
You ask, "No, I have not seen this standard. Would you be kind enough to post you copy of it here for all of us to see?"
 
Unfortunately I do not have the necessary clearances/permissions (from other concerned parties) to do so until the publication of a works in progress! Dave PLUTH , among others, has seen the original and I welcome your visit to, as Dave calls it, the "Lansdale Japanese Relic Museum and Research Facilities" to view it as well! (;>)
 
Perhaps OWAKI-san will post his copy.
 
Re: Color Standards: The "Browns"
 
Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
Date: Wednesday, 15 August 2001, at 3:27 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Color Standards: The "Browns" (James F. Lansdale)
 
thanks for finally clearing up what the "X-Y" codes mean - they´ve been quite puzzling to me ever since Owaki-san posted them. Have any new findings of his come to light since then? One of the last things he mentioned on this board, if I recall correctly, was that he was hoping to contact somebody who worked for one of the paint manufacturers during the war. That was about twenty months ago...
 
Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray?
 
Posted By: James F. Lansdale <LRAJIM@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, 11 August 2001, at 5:16 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray? (Greg Springer)
 
What is your source for this being a "misprint"/typo?
 
All the colors on the Feb 1945 Standards in the 2-1, 2-2 (#43/Tochi-iro), 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 2-6 range are grays or grayish and/or blue grays, but not brown! I also have an original copy of color chips from the Japanese Color Standards and the "browns" are prefixed by the numeral "3" i.e. 3-1, 3-2, 3-3.
 
Also, OWAKI-san is specfic in his analysis that this color, 2-2 (IJA #43), is 2.5Y 3/.03 as matched to the Munsell color standards key. This (2.5Y 3/.03) color is definitely more gray than brown!!!
 
I think that the meaning/use of the term "Tochi-iro" for this color by OWAKI-san is more subtle than just calling this color an "earth" or "earth brown." but rather it might be translated as "land" color with a different nuance!
 
My copy of the Japanese Color Standards color chips only has the numeric coding, as provided by TODA-san, with NO kanji terms being used to describe these colors. I do not know where OWAKI-san saw the terms he used nor can I document the provenance of such terminology to any wartime official sources.
 
Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray?
 
Posted By: Greg Springer <gspring@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sunday, 12 August 2001, at 8:31 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Why on Earth is "earth color" dark gray? (James F. Lansdale)
 
I was presuming (which frequently gets me in dutch) that the color name supplied by Owaki-san was correct. 'Tochi' is a horse chestnut, or buckeye. There are two kanji for it, one for the tree, one for the nut.(?) The translations in my dictionary are umambiguous. The color is a deep brown. Perhaps in Japan they are dark gray? Since I don't have a Munsell book, I was unable to cross check the FS number. (I really need to win the lottery so I can buy one.) So I stand, or rather sit here, corrected. Tochi would (to me) be more correct for color 3-1, FS 0062. That color was used on Ki 61s late in the war, e.g. the katabami/'shamrock' plane. The 00 series also led me to pick 0080. This leads to another question. Do you know of any records of army aircraft camouflaged with 6008? Perhaps it's for anti-glare panels.
 
NMF a/c ailerons, etc.
 
Posted By: Robert Stephenson <rstephen@hom.net>
Date: Friday, 6 April 2001, at 10:05 a.m.
 
I'm a bit late to the dance on the latest regarding JAAF and JNAF colors. I've gone through the FAQs and can't seem to find anything regarding the colors of the flying surfaces on natural metal a/c. Various profiles and model kit instructions seem to indicate that they were painted JAAF gray. Is this the Hai-Ryokushohu color that I've been reading about? If so is there a difference between the Army and Navy versions of this color? Or were the flying surfaces painted with aluminum dope? It's difficult to discern from photos just how they were treated.
 
Re: NMF a/c ailerons, etc.
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Sunday, 8 April 2001, at 2:05 p.m.
 
In Response To: NMF a/c ailerons, etc. (Robert Stephenson)
 
Both the Ki43 & Ki44 in natural metal finish featured control surfaces painted the "standard" Army grey-green colour. This colour has been described as sometimes "blueish" sometimes "greenish" depending on the paint content. According to Ichiro Hasegawa the colour was darker and less yellowish or beige than the grey-green of Nakajima built Zeros.
 
Ian K Baker suggests FS*4424 and *4226 as typical matches and mixes of Testors MM FS.34159 with white and yellow to achieve them. He includes a paint chip in his "Aviation History Colouring Book" Special No.40 which is a useful guide.
 
If you like acrylics and the convenience of OOB then both Gunze Sangyo H62 IJA Gray and Tamiya XF-14 JA Grey would be typical.
In enamels Aeromaster Warbird 9095 Army Gray is good - if you can find it! Xtracolor X352 Japanese WWII Army Grey is not bad but has a gloss finish.
Don't forget the bottom of the Ki43 rudder was metal skinned - the division is obvious in most Oscar model kits.
 
The grey-green for the Ki44 control surfaces is shown quite nicely in the colour plates in FAOW 16 on the type, published by Bunrin-Do. 
 
upper surface Blue
 
Posted By: JC Carbonel <jean-christophe.carbonel@laposte.fr>
Date: Wednesday, 14 March 2001, at 9:23 a.m.
 
This question is prompted by the thread on Ki 44 undersurfaces but maybe it has been already solved elsewhere :
 
in Thorpe's "bible" one can see many different "blue" aircraft all in different shades of blue. ranging from what would call "Navy blue" to "light blue grey" through other colours more like PRU Blue or "Azure Blue". Yet when one's go to Japanese Army / Navy aircraft colour chart one finds only one (dark) blue.
As far as clues are called I have only seen one picture of derelict Helens with blue criss cross pattern on them and for my eyes it could as well be the blue of the sky reflecting on a (green ?) paint. This is fairly common with modern aircraft which look "grey" when it is rainy and "blue" when it is shiny....
 
Can someone shed some light on this rather messy point ?
(I may turn blue out of confusion if the answers are too obvious!)
 
Re: Upper Surface Blues
 
Posted By: Tom Hall <Hall023038@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, 15 March 2001, at 5:50 a.m.
 
In Response To: upper surface Blue (JC Carbonel)
 
You raise a great topic. Let's backtrack, though, on the number of blues. I count four colors on the 2/45 standard that might qualify as blues. Going from darkest to lightest:
Kokuranshoku (apparently army only, around FS 5044)
Hairanshoku (apparently army only, around FS 5045)
Aoiro (a/k/a E1 in the navy, around FS 5080)
Tanseishoku (a/k/a E3 in the navy, around FS 5109)
 
Then we have the problem of how Hai-ryokushoku, a/k/a J3 in 1945, FS 6350, apparently deteriorated into something like a blue-gray on Dinah. Mr. Lansdale showed this phenomenon in photos.
In addition, there was L3, a navy medium gray which might have been taken for blue under some circumstances. And there is nothing to say that maintenance personnel stuck only to colors which appear on the 2/45 standard, or only to colors for their branch of the military.  
Of course, you can see how anti-glare paint may have evolved into 2/45 Kokuranshoku. We tend to assume from US Navy planes that blues were mainly over-water camouflage, but they were probably also used as a night camouflage.
 
I agree that the Helen which Joern has posted here probably was dark green camo, but perhaps over bare skin.
 
Upper surface blues on Ki-43 and -45.....
 
Posted By: Dan Salamone <heroncreek@qwest.net>
Date: Wednesday, 14 March 2001, at 9:48 p.m.
 
In Response To: upper surface Blue (JC Carbonel)
 
In the near future there will be further elaboration on blue Ki-43's- Jim Lansdale posted this a few months back and the gent who is doing the research will share it here at J-aircraft when complete. I cannot recall what Sentai the aircraft was from as like Nick says the 20th Sentai is reported as having some dark blue Ki-43II Otsu.
 
Also, in 1999(?) Katsushi Owaki reported that parts of a Ki-45 downed near Tokyo were blue, FS 25045 upper surfaces over FS 26270 lower surfaces. It is unknown if the blue was solid or in blotches similar to a "standard" Ki-45 scheme. This aircraft was from the Hitachi flying school and used in a ramming attack. Information from this aircraft can be found in Asahi Journal 4.1 page 21.
 
Re: upper surface Blue
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Wednesday, 14 March 2001, at 9:32 a.m.
 
In Response To: upper surface Blue (JC Carbonel)
 
RAF combat reports from Burma include many references to blue (and black) Oscars, some seen very closely! Perhaps the blue was faded black as some Oscars were used for night operations. (Refer to Jas Jottings Vol 6 Nos 2 & 3 for my articles on Oscar Units in Burma, which includes a profile of one "blue" Oscar recreated from an RAF report)
 
Japanese veterans of the 20th Sentai (also known to conduct night operations) recall their Oscars being painted in kon-iro, blue colour, apparently a quite dark purplish blue in that case. 
 
JAAF Fuel Tank Color
 
Posted By: Dave C. <dvdcl@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 19 April 2002, at 12:17 a.m.
 
I would like to know what the correct color to use for Japanese Army aircraft fuel tanks. The Hasagawa kit instructions say to use orange-yellow. I have heard that this is incorrrect. What color should I paint them? Does anyone have a paint mix for the approiate color?
 
Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color
 
Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca>
Date: Saturday, 20 April 2002, at 5:24 p.m.
 
In Response To: JAAF Fuel Tank Color (Dave C.)
 
What aircraft is this for? There have been some reports of yellow drop tanks on Ki-61s and Ki-100s. Take a look in the Army section of FAQs under the desired aircraft. Your answer *might* be there.
 
Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color
 
Posted By: Dave C. <dvdcl@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 21 April 2002, at 11:09 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color (Grant Goodale)
 
There are posts on the Ki-43 Oscar FAQ Pt.2&3. Also if you use the search engine you will find several posts (August 4, 1999) about the yellow drop tanks . Tennessee Katsuta had an interesting post that said the yellow drop tanks are not accurate. So thats where I got my information.
 
Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color
 
Posted By: Dave C. <dvdcl@hotmail.com>
Date: Saturday, 20 April 2002, at 9:56 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color (Grant Goodale)
 
Thank you for your reply. I have read the FAQ. But I would like to have color mixes or the correct color to use. I want to be safe and not sorry when it comes to the fuel tanks on my JAAF aircraft models.I would rather leave the fuel tanks off than to have them the wrong color. I am currently working on a Ki-44,Ki-84, and a Ki-61. I have heard that the orange yellow for fuel tanks is incorrect.
 
Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color
 
Posted By: Hiroyuki Takeuchi
Date: Monday, 22 April 2002, at 11:54 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color (Dave C.)
 
The source for orange yellow is from the account of a GI who's seen them after the war.
 
The source for green gray is from an IJA color standard document that specifies "yellow green #7 (or whatever the number was)" which seems to have been some sort of a light greyish green from testimonies.
 
My conclusion is gray-green of some sort is safe (if there's a standard, it would have existed), the orange yellow is more risky but you can't say it's wrong (just because it was not standard, it does not mean it didn't exist).
 
Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Sunday, 21 April 2002, at 10:41 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: JAAF Fuel Tank Color (Dave C.)
 
I'd be interested to learn where you heard that orange-yellow for droptanks is incorrect and what the source is for that. A lot of recent Japanese sources depict the tanks orange-yellow and that is consistent with their appearance in some photographs. However the FAOW on the Ki-44 shows droptanks in the grey-green colour.
 
The restored Ki-43 I droptank shown in Aero Detail 29 appears to be painted in a "Duck Egg Blue" colour but I don't know if this is copied from the original. In the modelling book "The Samurai's Wings" author Peter Fearis attributes natural metal, orange yellow, light grey, dark green or red-brown primer as acceptable alternative colours for these tanks.
 
Whatever the colour(s) it seems to have been quite common for just one tank to be carried on the Ki-44.
 
JAAF Drop Tank color
 
Posted By: Wes Stachnick <beckwes@msn.com>
Date: Saturday, 24 August 2002, at 3:31 p.m.
 
I am getting back to my first modeling love after several years ,JAAF & JNAF aircraft.I will have many questions that I must catch up on so please bear with me.First question, what color were JAAF drop tanks?I see "yellow" tanks on many kits and artist renderings.Hasagawa calls for GS H58 Interior green.What is the general opinion among this fine and learned group? Any FS Standard or paint mix ?
 
Re: JAAF Drop Tank color
 
Posted By: OWAKI, Katsushi <maystorm@kani.or.jp>
Date: Sunday, 25 August 2002, at 4:43 p.m.
 
In Response To: JAAF Drop Tank color (Wes Stachnick)
 
I have some information for Japanese drop tank colors as follows;
 
2.5GY5/1.8---Navy wooden drop tank/400liters---FS34226 but slightly yellowish.
2.5B5.5/1---Army bamboo drop tank/200liters---FS26280.
7.5Y3/2---Army wooden drop tank/600liters---FS33070/JAAF Olive Drab.
 
Re: JAAF Drop Tank color
 
Posted By: Wes Stachnick <beckwes@msn.com>
Date: Friday, 30 August 2002, at 9:25 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: JAAF Drop Tank color (OWAKI, Katsushi)
 
Thankyou for your responce to my IJAAF drop tank color question.this helped a great deal and I am using you suggestion on my Ki-84.
  
Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Friday, 23 August 2002, at 6:58 a.m.
 
checked in the FAQS but couldn't find any references to the orange color used to paint the trainers and especially the Akatombo/Tachikawa Ki-9. Any FS numbers? In the research section found numbers 1400, 2246, 2473. The 2473 looks the most probable. Any ideas?
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
Date: Saturday, 24 August 2002, at 1:13 a.m.
 
In Response To: Akatombo-trainer orange (Elephtheriou George)
 
What´s going on, are you planning to sit down and BUILD something at long last?
Okay, quite some time ago, around 1998/99, the following information was posted:
 
FS 33538/13415 “Trainer Orange Yellow – Army”
Verified to a wing strut from a Type 95 Trainer
 
My mix for that would be :
Gunze H 329 – 95% + H 24 – 5 %
 
I don´t quite recall who posted these findings, but it should have been Owaki-san or Urs Bopp.
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 28 August 2002, at 10:30 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Joern Leckscheid)
 
as you know I would like to build a couple (well...okay. Maybe more...) trainers in Manchurian markings and I would really like to finish that trainner in Nationalist China markings I promised the guys from last year's NATS. But, anyway...
 
Thank you for your FS numbers. Somehow they look VERY yellowish to me. I would choose this color for the IFF stripe not for the entire plane. Almost all the illustrations I have seen (Emblems, KFI 42, FAOW on the Spruce) show the Army trainers to carry almost the same orange as the Navy trainers.
Check if you like the walkaround section (from the front page). Dave has put up some of the photos I took during our visit to the Harada museum (thats why it took me some time to reply to your and other guy's postings. Sorry about that). Check the orange wheels. I'm still trying to figure out the type of the plane. Maybe a Willow, maybe a Spruce... How did your photos came out?
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: joe taylor <joe.taylor@bellhowell.com>
Date: Thursday, 29 August 2002, at 8:28 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Elephtheriou George)
 
I have been looking for this color for my Spruce. I found but not yet considered Floquil Railroad color Mandarin (China) Red. If available you may want to see for yourself.
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Bob Chubb <robert.l.chubb@verizon.net>
Date: Saturday, 24 August 2002, at 9:13 p.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Joern Leckscheid)
 
Can anybody tell me if the J8M1 used the same Orange/Yellow blend for it's prototype color?
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
Date: Sunday, 25 August 2002, at 6:26 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Bob Chubb)
 
the "Orange" colour generally quoted for Navy Trainers/Prototypes is FS 12300, although I´m not aware that a relic of a Shusui exists to prove it. However, it is a reasonably safe bet to use this one, and I will paint my Hasegawa/Pit Road "Shusui" in this colour should I ever get around to build it.
 
A Gunze Aqueous Hobby Color mix close to FS 12300 would be: H 4 – 95% + H 5 – 5%.
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Saturday, 24 August 2002, at 2:22 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Joern Leckscheid)
 
Yes! I like that! It is much more like the "yellow" in the photograph too.
 
I think "Akatombo" referred to the Navy trainers which were more reddish-orange???
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de>
Date: Saturday, 24 August 2002, at 2:58 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Nick Millman)
 
yes, I think "Akatombo" (Red Dragonfly) was the popular name given to the Navy Type 93 Trainer by its pilots.
I wonder if it was the first Navy type to be painted in the "orange" scheme?
 
Anyway, I do recall there was a colour profile in an old Koku Fan showing a Ki-9 (I think) in Korean (1950´s) markings. I think the bottom of this plane was still shown in orange. Obviously very few Army types received this colour at all.
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 28 August 2002, at 10:44 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Joern Leckscheid)
 
"Akatombo" was the popular name for the Ki-9/ Spruce not the K5Y (as far as know about the Willow). I'm sure about the Akatombo-Spruce because I have in my hands a book dedicated to the Ki-9 entitled "Akatombo" (we rent it from the Aviation Library).
 
The Ki-17, Ki-55/Ida, Ki-86 were also painted trainer orange and I wouldn't be surprised if Mansyu Ki-79s were painted orange too.
 
"Akatombo", I think, was the nickname for the Navy Orange color. It was not given to any specific plane.
 
What do you think?
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Nick Millman
Date: Friday, 23 August 2002, at 11:39 p.m.
 
In Response To: Akatombo-trainer orange (Elephtheriou George)
 
there is a colour photograph in "WWII Pacific War Eagles in Original Color" by Ethell/Bodie (page 214) which shows a biplane trainer to be much more "yellow" - more like the wing leading edge ID strips. Were some trainers painted this deep yellow colour I wonder? If you don't have this book I will send you a scan of the photograph.
 
I used a slightly more "yellowed" version of 2473 on one of my Ki-55's and found it to have a very pleasing appearance indeed.
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: Elephtheriou George <arawasi_g@hotmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 28 August 2002, at 10:46 a.m.
 
In Response To: Re: Akatombo-trainer orange (Nick Millman)
 
I tend to believe too that a 12300-12473 is closer. I would use a 12300...
 
Re: Akatombo-trainer orange
 
Posted By: George Dively <jordy@erols.com>
Date: Friday, 23 August 2002, at 8:22 p.m.
 
In Response To: Akatombo-trainer orange (Elephtheriou George)
 
From Ian K. Baker's "Aviation History Colouring Book, #38" he suggests the red-orange color is between PMS 1665U and PMS 172U from the Pantone system. I have placed the swatches down and visualized the range of deep to bright red-oranges that would be indicated with his information and I believe they are quite pleasing, and in contrast with the Hinomaru in B&W photos of Ki-9s, look pretty believable too.
 
Dark Blue on JAAF planes
 
Posted By: Roy Wiggs <roy493@open.org>
Date: Saturday, 10 August 2002, at 8:58 a.m.