Airbrushing


AIRBRUSHING

Topics:
Airbrush Recommendations
Cleaning
Water Traps
Air Pressure
Work Areas
General Usage
Airbrush Repairs


Airbrush Recommendations

Posted By: Airell Hodgkinson <aircat@bigpond.com>
Date: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 4:01 a.m.

Having been a brush painter for most of my modeling life I've decided to take the plunge and look at airbrushes. (Welcome to the 20th century I hear you say).
So what's the rap - which is the best and easiest to use for a novice? And which paints to use for Japanese a/c?
Fire away!
A

Posted By: Ronnie Murray <ronnie.murray@ncmail.net>
Date: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 10:02 a.m.

Badger 175 Crescendo. I love it and it's a good price for what you get. I used the Testors single action Aztec for a couple of years. It is a decent unit overall and is very inexpensive and simple to use. That would be my second choice. Whatever you get, the more you use it, the better you'll be. Don't be afraid to experiment. Have fun, you'll love it.

Posted By: Jim Kaltenhauser <kaltenhauser@yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 10:15 a.m.

Airell. I have also found that a regulator for any compressor does help control a lot of over spray and spitting. Currently I have found the Paasche H brush to do very well for myself. I agree with Ronnie that the more you play the more it will pay.

Posted By: Jim Kaltenhauser <kaltenhauser@yahoo.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 6:18 a.m.

Does anyone have a recommendation on a reasonable airbrush? I've heard nice things about the Badger 150. I use to have a Paasche H.
Jim

Posted By: Clark Hollis <Raidenhollis@cs.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 6:57 a.m.

Jim, I've used the Paasche and the Badger and didn't care for either one, so I'm working on my second Binks Wren single action airbrush. Very good quality and not expensive. I spray enamel, lacquer and acrylic without any problem, and I have no problem doing German mottle camouflage in 1/72 scale. I think their home office is in Illinois. I can check it out further if you want. If you live in or near a large city, there is probably a Binks distributor in it somewhere. Good luck, Clark

Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 3:05 p.m.

Buy 2.
1. Paasche H-1 for general spraying, masked spraying, acrylic overcoats. External Mix, single-action - easy to clean, cheap, durable.
2. Iwata - the Lexus (it’s Japanese ) of airbrushes, IMHO. I have an HP-B gravity feed with a built-in cup, crown cap, and pre-set handle. Used for fine mottling, exhausts - wonderful with very thin enamels. More problematic to clean.
Why have 2? I save the Iwata for chipping and putting, use the Paasche on the fairways! Only Kevin Costner plays with one club!
An excellent and reliable web source for these or others:
Dixie Art Supply

http://www.dixieart.com/
Dixie Art Supply

Posted By: Jeff McGuire <jmcguire@j-aircraft.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 4:26 p.m.

Jim, I like the Badger airbrushes. I have a 200 and a 155 and I have no complaints about either. They are also very affordable. Jeff

Posted By: Dave Pluth <dave@j-aircraft.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 4:40 p.m.

Hi Jeff,
On the 155, does the tip go all the way on? I've got one and it just looks really strange.
-Dave

Posted By: Jeff McGuire <jmcguire@j-aircraft.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 4:50 p.m.

Dave, I just looked at mine and it appears to be all the way on, the needle does stick out of the end when it's closed though. Jeff

Posted By: Rick <Shank913@aol.com> Date: Wednesday, 5 July 2000, at 11:29 p.m.

Clark,
I own a Crescendo, and 2 Anthem airbrushes made by Badger. I don’t care much for the 150 because of the tip design. The Crescendo and Anthem airbrushes have a floating tip assembly that makes maintenance quicker and easier. I also own several Paasche VL Double Action airbrushes and I have to say they are my favorites. They are easy to work on and the parts are relatively inexpensive. I use them for modeling and t-shirt airbrushing and I have always been happy with their performance.

Posted By: Rick <Shank913@aol.com> Date: Thursday, 6 July 2000, at 11:54 a.m.

Jim
I have been airbrushing t-shirts and model airplanes for over 25 years. There are a lot of good airbrushes on the market and what one person will swear by another person will swear at! Your best bet is a double action airbrush. They cost a little more than a single action but the extra control they offer is worth it. The only feature I dislike about my Badger airbrushes is when the needle bearing goes bad you have to send it in to the factory for repair. They do this free of charge but you’re still out of an airbrush a couple of weeks. With a Paasche VL you can easily do this repair yourself. If you or any one has a question about airbrushing feel free to E-mail me and I will help you any way I can.
RICK

Posted By: Tom Hall <hall41@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thursday, 6 July 2000, at 8:18 p.m.

Does anyone have any experience with the super-deluxe Paasche that has an atomizer canister at the side? The one that can be made to spray the least material?

Posted By: Rick Shank <Shank913@aol.com> Date: Saturday, 8 July 2000, at 2:14 p.m.

Tom,
Are you referring to the Paasche AB Turbo? It is mainly used for fine illustration work and I would not recommend it for spraying hobby enamels. It is capable of very fine lines but that usually entails light bodied paints, watercolors, inks, etc. It is a very precise airbrush and I would not recommend it to a novice. If you want a good general purpose airbrush for painting models I would recommend the Paasche VL, Thayer & Chandler Vega, and the Badger Crescendo and Anthem.
-Rick-

Posted By: Roachie <roachdas@dingoblue.net.au> Date: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 12:30 a.m.

After 25 years and two x Badger Single-action 200's, I jumped at the chance to upgrade when the Aztek (Testors) range appeared in Oz. I build everything and anything in 1/48 (95% WWII) so mottling comes into the equation. Since the Aztek, I've markedly increased the quality of my finished projects and receive positive comments from my peers. The facts are that Aztek have produced a no-nonsense, robust and practical item in the form of the A4709 series.
With regard to the Badger and its Needle Bearing, I have changed these for customers at times when they have found intermittent paint spray...wear and tear of the bearing. There's no trick to it, you just have to use a blunt-ended kebab stick and a blunt, round toothpick - one for out, one for in.

Posted By: Marian Holly <maroalekit@msn.com> Date: Wednesday, 10 January 2001, at 1:01 p.m.

Hello all, I know it has been already discussed here sometime last year but my question is rather specific. I heard good things about Iwata HP-B gravity feed and Eclipse (side cup would be my choice). Anyone has the experience with these and/or recommendation/ preference? I'm using exclusively acrylics so I'm very curious what performance I could expect from these airbrushes. Many thanks Marian

Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com> Date: Saturday, 13 January 2001, at 8:02 a.m.

I have both an HP-A (same as the HP-B but with a "slot" for only a drop of paint) and an Eclipse BS (Same gravity feed small cup as the HP-B but with a larger nozzle).
The HP-A is used for very tiny jobs - 1:72 Luftwaffe mottling, wave-mirror, Italian smoke rings, fine free-hand edging, exhaust stains, etc. with hyper-thin paint - 1:3 paint thinner is not unusual. Very handy because it is relatively light and there is no cup or bottle to get in the way in tight spaces. It will do a line about this fine ( | ) with ink or very thin paint.
The BS does almost as well, and is the normal choice for free hand camo.
The BS is IMHO the best compromise as the nozzle is a bit larger and more forgiving and less clog-prone.
I use very thin Floquil, Aeromaster, and MM II enamels (usually thinned 1:1 or thinner) in the BS.
Gravity feed brushes are superior for close in work as they flow better, and the built-in cup makes the whole assembly more "wieldy". You have to be careful not to spill from the open cup, but with the BS you can cover the top with a piece of Saran Wrap or similar with a breather pin hole pricked in it. Cleaning is a run thru with pure thinner after each cup full. I use either Odorless Mineral Spirits or Turpenoid to thin enamels, and sometimes add a drop of natural turpentine to slow down the drying in the winter when the humidity is lower.
For large areas, basic component spraying, priming, painting masked areas, "future" or acrylic flat over coating, I still prefer my 25-year-old Paasche H-1, but I polish the needle with micro-mesh and clean regularly.
( I used the Paasche exclusively to do the box models for AM of the Il-2, Yak 1, and F3F-2, FWIW. You might also check my chapter in "Master Scratch Builders" by John Alcorn for some pics of other models and tips and techniques which some have found useful - shameless plugs 8^) )
I would recommend Dixie Airbrush in the US as a great and extremely fast source - cheap prices and free shipping over $45. I have ordered over the web and recieved goods in 4 working days.
Here are their catalog pages - for the BS:
http://www.dixieart.com/Iwata_Eclipse_Airbrushes_2.html#anchor5915
and the HP-A & B:
http://www.dixieart.com/IwataHPA_B_SB.html
and the Paasche:
http://www.dixieart.com/HSet.html
( Luxuries ) A pre-set handle and crown cap are useful additions and will marginally improve utility - the preset-handle allows you to set the spray for a constant width which is useful for constant diameter lines and the crown cap allows you to get a bit closer for very fine work while still protecting the tip of the needle - you can achieve the same results by removing the standard cap at the risk of bending the needle.
Medea Airbrush Lube is good to have as well.
Since my compressor has a Paasche hose, my Iwata brushes have a Paasche hose to Iwata Brush fitting on each brush.

Posted By: rick shank <shank913@aol.com> Date: Friday, 12 January 2001, at 6:30 p.m.

Marian, Iwata airbrushes are excellent. They can spray acrylics with no problems. The Eclipse will probably do everything you have in mind but Iwatas aren't cheap. If you have any questions call 1-800-bearair and a service rep will be glad to answer any further questions you may have. Remember, though, to be proficient with any airbrush takes practice and lots of patience. RICK SHANK

Posted By: RICK SHANK <shank913@aol.com> Date: Tuesday, 16 January 2001, at 4:59 a.m.

Marian, I am a part time t-shirt air brusher and had the opportunity to use the Eclipse that a friend of mine had and I found it to be a very well balanced user-friendly airbrush. I would recommend it. RICK

Posted By: Pete Chalmers <pchalmers@carolina.rr.com> Date: Tuesday, 6 February 2001, at 8:02 p.m.

Gary;
Any Iwata will impress you with its fine engineering and quality. I personally prefer a gravity-feed brush with a small reservoir, so the HP-B would be my preference in the "HP" series. However, my Eclipse BS is equally as good, is $20 cheaper, and has a slightly larger .35 mm needle/nozzle, which is better for most paint applications. I don't like the big reservoir on the HP-C or the side or bottom-feed models since they are a bit unwieldy for close-in work. I usually pre-mix and thin my paint in a separate glass bottle and load the small reservoir with an eyedropper as I paint.
For big jobs, solid colors or masked applications, interior or component painting, priming, clear overcoats ("Future"), etc, I find the old Paasche H-1 or H-3 to be much more useful. I can't see using and cleaning the more delicate and harder-to-clean internal-mix Iwata for jobs that don't require the fine work - the Paasche will spray just as smooth a coat as long as you adequately thin the paint.
( I'm an enamel user, BTW )
here's the Dixie URL for the Eclipse BS:
http://www.dixieart.com/Iwata_Eclipse_Airbrushes_2.html#anchor5915
A "Must" accessory is the crown-cap, which eliminates close-in turbulence and allows you to get very close for tiny lines/mottling.
Also useful is the pre-set handle - the PS-2 fits the Eclipse - this allows you to limit the needle pull back so that a constant line can be "drawn".
Here's a URL showing the accessories:
http://www.arttalk.com/iwata/acc-grip.htm
The latest FSM has a good article on fine-tuning and polishing a double action brush for better performance as well as a more basic supplement on airbrushing.
Pete

Cleaning

Posted By: TONY <SISSY11@PRODIGY.NET>
Date: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 6:48 a.m.

I worked in a hobby shop and was forever fixing airbrushes. It sounds like the airbrush needs a complete overhaul and cleaning. If you have a breakdown sheet I recommend you take it completely apart and clean the brush. Open up all the holes that are clogged and replace all gaskets. The small bristle brushes for cleaning water picks work great for this.

Water Traps

Posted By: Roachie <roachdas@dingoblue.net.au> Date: Saturday, 12 August 2000, at 5:41 a.m.

I have not experienced, nor heard of (until the previous posting) water traps becoming hot and leading to a build-up of condensation. A requirement to have (some) 20ft between compressor and water trap is a bit odd.... and impractical I would think. The Holding Compressor which I have, and others used by mates of mine are what I would call designed to operate with the water trap attached close to, or onto, the outlet valve of the compressor. Water traps I am familiar with also have a vent at the base to expel any moisture build-up. Personally, I have never had a problem with corrupted air - I believe the length of air hose and the quality of the water trap are sufficient to alleviate/ minimize any potential problem. I would certainly agree that the length of hose from a water trap to the compressor outlet would greatly reduce any moisture problem - even 'x' number of feet of coiled hose - again there is the matter of how your compressor is hooked up, the manner in which the airbrush hose from the water trap leads to the spray booth/work- bench - for instance, I have a hole in my bench top where the air hose emerges from the water trap/compressor on the floor at my feet - I control off/on switches and valves with my feet! How does that all read? Of course, to adjust psi, then it's hands and knees and a bit of a ‘crank’... Regards - hope this of some help....
Roachie

Posted By: RICK SHANK Date: Saturday, 12 August 2000, at 4:36 p.m.

Roachie, I should have worded my message a little better! I meant most compressors get hot after a while, not the water trap. As it was explained to me, once an air compressor begins to run hot the heated air needs distance to cool down so any moisture present in the lines will condense into droplets, otherwise it will be in a steamy state and the trap cannot effectively remove all the moisture. I have industrial type air compressors that run pretty warm after a while and I have this type of trap hookup on all of them. It might sound like overkill, but I do most of my airbrushing in a frequently damp basement and I always had water problems until I went to this system. Maybe some of the high dollar compressors designed specifically for airbrushing aren't quite the water pumps that mine are. I hope this clears up any confusion I may have caused, and all I can say is it works for me. LATER, RICK

Air Pressure

Posted By: Jim Eyerdom <jheyerdom@aol.com>
Date: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 10:21 p.m.
Hello All,
A question on airbrushing. How much air pressure do you guys use? I've been using mostly Tamiya acrylics thinned with alcohol, and have had best results in getting nice feathered edges at 100-150psi. Yet, aren't the recommended pressures a lot lower? I've got an old 20 year-old-plus Badger that spits and leaves grainy edges at around 40-50psi, but performs great when I use my compressor at full blow. I've had very little problems with freezing the paint, or having the paint dry out before it hits the surface. Comments please!
Jim

Posted By: Dave Pluth <dpluth@j-aircraft.com>
Date: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 11:43 a.m.
That sounds very high. I spray at around 20-25psi using both acrylics and enamels. I use my Badger 350, Badger 150 and Aztek 470 all at the same pressure. Also I thin all the paints to the consistency of skim milk.
What's your setup?
-Dave

Posted By: Jim Eyerdom <jheyerdom@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 7:55 p.m.
Dave and Rob,
Thanks for the feedback. This old sprayer I have doesn't even have the model number on it anymore, as the rear plastic portion with the name broke off years ago. I'd gotten so used to it that I never upgraded, but it looks like it's about time. Perhaps there must be something that's been restricting the airflow improperly in it all these years, as the dilution that I use sounds pretty similar to what Dave describes.
Thanks again, Jim

Work Areas

Posted By: Grant Goodale <grant.goodale@sympatico.ca> Date: Thursday, 17 August 2000, at 8:04 p.m.

Hello all -
I have a question about how you do your airbrushing. I have set up a simple "spray booth" consisting of a cardboard box into the back of which I have duct-taped a flexible dryer vent hose (4 inch). I stick the other end out of the window. When I clean my airbrush, I like to blow lacquer thinner through it and this seems to take care of things. I use the "booth" to prevent overspray and to cut down on the paint dust, which gradually will coat everything in the room (based on my son's experience). I have looked at some commercial spray booths and their costs make me choke. I would like to make a more permanent both out of plywood and I would like to add a fan to this affair so that I can be sure that evrything is being properly vented outside. I looked at a simple bathroom exhaust fan but I am concerned that, if the motor causes even the slightest sparking, a cloud of lacquer thinner would cause some very pyrotechnic results!
What does everyone else do to address this entire "spray area" issue?
Thanks for any info

Posted By: Dave Pluth <dave@j-aircraft.com> Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 6:28 a.m.

I built a spray booth a few years back and have used it religiously ever since. Mine has a range hood (like above the stove) on top and I vent everything out the window through a dryer vent hose. If I had it to do over again, I would change a couple of things.
First, I'd vent the thing out the back. Pulling particles up only leads to having some of them fall onto the finished model. Hence, I end up with some rough finishes.
Second, I'd put a more powerful fan on. The range vent does get a majority of things, but doesn't quite draw heavy enough to really work correctly.
All in all, it's better than nothing, but still not perfect.
-Dave

Posted By: Roachie <roachdas@dingoblue.net.au> Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 6:09 a.m.

I am indoors with U-shaped work bench. Work height is 30" from the floor. Left hand side of 'U' is 5ft work area where I assemble. At the top of the 'U' is another 5ft long workbench - the spray area occupies the right hand end of this second 5ft section. The right hand side of the 'U' is airbrush storage and clean-up area and a kitchen sink built in with hot & cold taps. Spray area is 26" wide with two upright sections, which end overhead at a shelf where I keep some of my kits. Cut into this overhead shelf is a hole in which sits the inlet and ducting which passes up into the ceiling where a Vortice light industrial exhaust fan sits...the second piece of ducting goes from the outlet at the Vortice to the outlet grille built up under the soffits at the side of the house ----et voila, no fumes! This is by no means the classic spray booth because I am relying on the overspray to be drawn up the sides and back of the spray area by the suction from the exhaust fan. I don't have any problems as I find paint/dust residue on the inlet above my head where everything is drawn in. Can you picture my description? It has taken me some 20-odd years to get to this stage.... everything before this was quite primitive and hit and miss as evidenced by all those dust motes I still find faithfully stuck to by older kits!!

Posted By: Jim Fox <jimnfox@net-link.net> Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 6:03 a.m.

I constructed mine out of plywood and added both a pleated furnace filter and a axial fan (computer fan - larger) to the top. This is then ducted outside of the house through a dryer vent.
I picked up the Axial fan from Grainger (grainger.com). It's rated at 235 CFM, which is more than adequate. At the time of building, I was competing with the furnace, and the smell of paint and thinners was being sucked back into the house. NOT ANY MORE!
HTH
Jim Fox
General Usage

Posted By: Jim Fox <jimnfox@net-link.net>
Date: Tuesday, 27 June 2000, at 10:48 a.m.

I've asked this already, but was getting ready to attempt again. Thought maybe someone would have a last minute tip.
I going to be shooting Aeromaster (RIP) Acrylic Nakajima Navy Green with a Paasche H airbrush with the #3 tip (I don't have the #1).
I usually thin it by guessing the recommended 15%, but I know I need maybe a 50/50 ratio for free handing? Yes/No? Thinning agent? Regular distilled water?
Then I'll dial the brush down to a smaller area of coverage, and maybe shoot at 8-10PSI???
Any of this sound good, or sound bad? Final thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
Jim "getting frustrated" Fox

Posted By: C.S. Richardson <mimmp@castlegate.net>
Date: Tuesday, 27 June 2000, at 8:46 p.m.

On thinning acrylics: FWIW, in my frustration with some spattering Polyscale acrylic I added a few drops of airplane dope thinner, and what a change! No spattering, flowed out smoothly and dried quickly. 'Twill be my thinner of choice 'till I find something better.
C.S.

Posted By: John Acosta <xmdjna@cs.com>
Date: Tuesday, 27 June 2000, at 4:07 p.m.

Hi Jim;
For Acrylic I use warm (almost hot) distilled water about 30% diluted. The warm water makes the paint flow smoothly. Eight to 10 psi works well, but remember to spray at a 45-degree angle into the area you are painting. This reduces spattering in one direction and thus gives you a tighter line even with a number 3 tip. I strongly recommend getting a number 1 tip for your brush. I bought a few from Roll Models a couple of years ago along with some extra paint bottles. Now my airbrushing sessions are a pleasure, since I can spray a few colors and worry about cleaning up at the end!
Regards, John Acosta

Posted By: jbank <jbank@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Thursday, 29 June 2000, at 2:30 p.m.

Concur with John's recommendation of hot water. For PolyScale paints (and Aeromaster) I also add a couple of drops of artist’s acrylic retarder. This prevents the paint from drying too quickly, like on the needle of the airbrush. HTH,
John

Posted By: Roachie <roachdas@dingoblue.net.au>
Date: Thursday, 13 July 2000, at 12:57 a.m.

It has been my experience that to avoid, or to minimize "spatter" or overspray, then you either, (a) increase the thinning ratio e.g. 20/40 thinners paint to (say) 40/60, or (b) increase your psi, even up to as much as 25-30. I run regular workshops at a retail outlet and am mostly asked to demo airbrushing techniques. One demonstration I carry out, using Aztek A4709 double-action is to spray a 40/60 Tamiya acrylic at around 15psi (this is done perpendicularly onto a piece of white card and as little as 1/4" from the target}. I then show what happens when the psi is increased up to about 25.... no other adjustments are made to thinning or to the knurled nut at the back of the airbrush. Instantly, there is a sharper definition to the line, or dot, or character. One thing I advise all customers is to get themselves a book of butchers paper, a dark colored paint and to both practice and experiment. I don't pretend to get the thinning right every time, but believe me, there are a myriad of factors which do influence how a job (or even a day) is going to turn out. Sitting a jar (or packet) of paint in warm water prior/during painting also can help.

Posted By: MJ12 <mj12_albert@hotmail.com> Date: Sunday, 31 December 2000, at 5:53 p.m.

Can someone tell me how do I spray my plane after I’ve assembled it??

Posted By: Grant Elliott <guzzi@space.net.au> Date: Sunday, 31 December 2000, at 7:36 p.m.

In Response To: help for a newbie (MJ12)

There are many pitfalls and other traps for the unwary. Best rat around in this site and Hyperscale for How-To articles. Are all your seams smoothed to your satisfaction? If in doubt, practice on less important kits before committing to an expensive or cherished model. I can strongly recommend masking out your canopies, wheel wells etc. before starting. Using an airbrush and some form of air supply, some well thinned paints acrylics or enamels then going for it. If you are going to try this with pressure packs, warm the containers in water you can stand with bare hands prior to use. Don't apply too heavily. Good luck in this new enterprise. I'm still learning after a decade or more. Happy New Year Grant

Airbrush Repairs

Posted By: Jeff McGuire <jmcguire@j-aircraft.com> Date: Wednesday, 7 March 2001, at 8:53 p.m.

Fellas, I have an old Badger 200 airbrush. It is my long-standing buddy for fine painting. However, it has recently quit me. It blows bubbles back down in the paint jar, even if it's just straight thinner I'm trying to run through it. I've taken the head off and I can see through it. I've also cleaned where the bottle attaches. Does it just need to go in the trash? Jeff

Posted By: Dave Pluth <dave@j-aircraft.com> Date: Wednesday, 7 March 2001, at 9:07 p.m.

Hi Jeff,
Couple things to check. First, try a new bottle top. I've had that clog up several times and do exactly what you are talking about. Clean the holes in the head, not the main holes, but the three other holes. Soak the whole head in lacquer thinner and the try to clean it out. If this doesn't work, drop Badger a note and send it in for repair. They generally don't charge anything for it other than postage.
-Dave

Posted By: Tom Baldwin <tom_baldwin@mcfa.com> Date: Thursday, 8 March 2001, at 3:43 p.m.

Jeff,
Good advise from Dave, after using the 200 for close to ten years now, when you experience bubbles through the cup into the brush, it ususally indicates that the needle bearing INSIDE the brush has become dislodged, and unfortunately, the only fix is to send back to Badger. I've done this a coule of times before, it usually takes a couple of weeks, they ask that you send the brush back with a SASE- I send the manila type envelope with the bubble wrap on the inside. HTH
Tom

Posted By: Dave Pluth <dave@j-aircraft.com> Date: Thursday, 8 March 2001, at 5:12 p.m.

Jeff,
Go to: http://www.badgerairbrush.com/. They should have everything you need there.
Dave

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