Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" Pt 2

Anybody know the internal fuel capacity of the Zero, Kate, and Val? I'll take liters, gallons, pounds, drams, pints... whatever, and I ain't real picky about the specific model, either.

Thanks,

-jon parshall-
www.CombinedFleet.com

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A>
Date: Saturday, 1 July 2000, at 8:44 p.m.

In Response To: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jon Parshall)

This is from Aircraft in Profile #240 "Aichi D3A ('Val') & Yokosuka D4Y ('Judy') Carrier Bombers of the IJNAF (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith):

Fuel Capacity of D3A
"Internal 1,079 liters (235 Imperial gallons) in five unprotected tanks; two in each wing, one under pilot's seat, all containing 92 octane petrol. In starboard wing root, a small fuel tank (100 octane) for take of; 58 liter (25.8 Imperial gal.). One 60 liter (13.2 Imp.gal.) oil tank behind the engine."

Will dig out data on Zero and Kate.

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jon Parshall <mailto:jonp@is.com?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A>
Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 1:19 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jim Broshot)

You The Man. I'm guessing the Kate carried about 180 gallons. I subtracted her empty weight (2,279kg) from her loaded weight (3,800kg), plus payload and all that and got about 496kg. of fuel.

Loaded: 3,800
Empty: 2,279 -
Payload: 800 -
Crew: 225 - (figuring 75kg./165lb. per crewman x 3 crew)

= Fuel 496 kg.

Specific density of gasolines are around .74, so 496 kilos of fuel is 496/.74= 671 liters. 671 liters is 177 gallons.

-jon-

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A>
Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 5:58 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jon Parshall)

Thanks. Got tired of playing Diablo II, so A6M fuel capacity:

A6M1 - internal: 518 liters (114 Imp.gal.)

drop tank: 330 liters (72.6 Imp.gal.)

A6M2 Model 21 - ditto

A6M2-N: internal: ditto

auxiliary tank in central float: 325 liters (71.5 Imp.gal.)

A6M2-K: internal: 380 liters (83.6 Imp.gal.)

from "The Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero-Sen" (by Rene J. Francillon, PhD) in
AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME SIX (Martin C. Windrow, General Editor);
Garden City NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1970 (No ISBN)

A6M3-Model 22: internal: 570 liters (125.4 Imp.gal.)

drop tank: 330 liters (72.6 Imp.gal.)

A6M3-Model 32: internal: 480 liters (105.6 Imp.gal.)

drop tank: same as above

from "The Mitsubishi A6M3 Zero-Sen ("Hamp")" (Rene J. Francillon, PhD) in
AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME EIGHT (Martin C. Windrow, General Editor);
Garden City NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1970 (No ISBN)

A6M5 Model 52: internal: 540 liters (189 Imp.gal.)

drop tank: 330 liters (72.6 Imp.gal.)

NOTE: A6M7 Model 63 carried bomb on center line rack, had 2x 150 liter (33 Imp.gal.) wing-mounted drop tanks
A6M8 Model 54 also carried center line bomb rack, had 2x 350 liter (77 Imp.gal )
wing mounted drop tanks. From "Mitsubishi A6M5 to A6M8 Zero-Sen ('Zeke 52')" (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith) in AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME 12 (Charles W. Cain, General Editor);
Garden City NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1974 (ISBN (US) 0-385-09670-4)

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jon Parshall <mailto:jonp@is.com?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A>
Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 7:36 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jim Broshot)

Thank you, and thank you for some of the citation data; I neglected to mention that I need that, too. Would it be asking too much to request the complete cite for this Val information? I went looking on Amazon for other books of this series to grab the cite that way, but no luck. Thanks; I really appreciate it!

-jon parshall-
Imperial Japanese Navy Page
http://www.combinedfleet.com/

Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A>
Date: Sunday, 2 July 2000, at 12:16 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Fuel capacity of A6M, B5N, D3A (Jon Parshall)

Full cite is:

"Aichi D3A ('Val') & Yokosuka D4Y ('Judy') Carrier Bombers of the IJNAF (M. C. Richards and Donald S. Smith) in AIRCRAFT IN PROFILE - VOLUME 13 (Charles W. Cain, General Editor); Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1974 (ISBN (USA) 0-385-09671-2).

Have privilege of owning all thirteen hardbound volumes (it took 30+ years to get them all).

"Kate" Profile (No. 141 in Volume 6, and written by Dr. M. F. Hawkins), alas, has NO data on B5N capacity except to state that, "integral fuel tanks, incorporating wing upper and lower skin, were dropped between the main and rear spar of the center section and fastened by a hinge arrangement along the edges."

Will check the A6M stuff when I have time later.

KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 1:50 a.m

Dear Rob and Paul,
just checked the caption of the photo that you mentioned of the Model Art No.510 page 198 and it says that the KA-101 AND the KA-103 were very rare planes because their cowling was painted in that way. AND that their IFF stripes were RED!!!!!
Now, if you take a better look at the photo, you will see that the color looks darker than the rest of the plane. In your mail you included the Kit's Box art and from what I can see the IFF stripes are RED.
Apart from that, the color of the rest of the plane, is mentioned as "Ame Iro", which after the lesson I took from Mr. Lansdale and the rest of J-Aircraft staff, should better be "Hairyokukashoku".
Anybody else with more info on this most interesting and rare subject?
Thank you
George

Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 6:13 a.m.

In Response To: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!! (Elephtheriou George)

George

I still have great difficulty interpreting color in b/w photos. Admittedly, the Japanese did issue orders to have yellow or red l/e IFF stripes (see posting by TAKEUCHI-san, J-Aircraft.com Navy Aircraft Forum 7/2/00). Red l/e IFF stripes appear most often (if not exclusively) on IJAAF aircraft, not usually on IJNAF aircraft.

Also, we have evidence that some of these trainer aircraft were painted a yellow color which may not be easily distinguished from hairyokushoku (gray-green) in b/w photos.

"Appendix A: COLOR OF ZERO TRAINERS

Since 1984, a Japanese researcher has repeatedly explained and illustrated in many books and magazines that Zero trainers had been painted in mei-kaishoku or 'ameiro'. Without checking with primary sources, some model aircraft writers regarded his assertion as a matter of course, and painted their Zero trainers as such. Not very few people have been brainwashed into believing Zero trainers had actually been painted in mei-kaishoku.

In reality, however, IJN had a principle to paint training and experimental aircraft in 'tou-ou-shoku' (literally orange yellow but practically orange or mandarin orange; some people call it 'ou-tou-shoku' but tou-ou-shoku is the official notation). The principle was set out in Air HQ directive #8777 of 29 December 1938 titled 'Renshu-ki Kitai Gaimen Toshoku ni kansuru ken' (Re Outer Airframe Color for Trainers). The directive was reported as stating '...paint prescriptions and color samples are distributed as necessary.' The 'Riku-kaigun Chuo Kyotei' (Army and Navy Central Agreement) of 15 September 1942 also stated: 'Training and experimental aircraft should be painted in ou-shoku [literally yellow but practically orange] wherever conditions permit.' The overall orange principle remained effective until superseded by another directive of 3 July 1943. (Mr. Donald W. Thorpe touched on this July 1943 directive in his book 'Japanese Naval Air Force Camouflage and Markings WWII'.) Of course, no official documents show Zero trainers were painted in mei-kaishoku or hai-ryokushoku. It is barbarous and ridiculous to describe Zero trainers were painted in ameiro.

Some may argue that Zero trainers in B&W photos look similar to Zero fighters in early scheme. But that does not substantiate they actually wore the same color. Orange may as well look like light gray in B&W photos, as can be seen in the existing photos of Yokosuka K5Y Type 93 Intermediate Trainer (93-chu-ren), the biplane commonly dubbed 'Aka-tombo' or red dragonfly.

I interviewed an ex-navy engineer, who had used to repair and modify aircraft at 1st Navy Aircraft Arsenal of Tsuchiura, Japan. He asserted: 'Type 0 Trainer was painted in tou-oushoku, exactly the same color as used for Type 93 Aka-tombo, a reddish orange. Later, however, the topside changed to dark green.' And he countered my question by asking: 'Kurosu-san, is there any evidence at all that Zero trainers in mei-kaishoku ever existed?' Of course, I answered 'No'.

A friend of mine recently showed his 1/72 orange Zero trainer and 1/48 dark-green/orange Zero trainer at a model exhibition in Osaka. Among visitors was an old man, who used to fly Zero fighters at an IJN base in Kyusyu after finishing 'Yokaren' (navy's preparatory pilot training course) in 1944. Pointing at his 1/72 orange Zero trainer, the old man said: 'It reminds me of those days.'

The old man recalled: 'Aka-tombo, I mean 93-chu-ren, and rei-rensen (Zero trainer)... they are trainers and therefore were all painted in this color, as far as I saw them.' My friend asked if he had ever seen a Zero trainer in haiiro scheme, and the old man replied:

'No, at least in Kyushu, where I stationed, I have never seen Rensen in haiiro. Well, never seen haiiro ones, but I saw, near the end of the war at Kanoya base, many machines with green paint applied over orange. Still then, the under surface was in orange.'

Pointing at his 1/48 Rensen in dark-green and orange scheme, the old man continued: 'Yeah, just like this. I heard that maintenance crew had painted green on them.'

Development of Zero trainer began in 1942. At first, it was temporarily called "17-shi Renshu-yo Sentoki" or Type 17 Experimental Training Fighter. First prototype rolled out in January 1943, and IJN officially adopted it as A6M2-K Rei-shiki Renshu-yo Sento-ki Ichi-ichi-gata (Type 0 Training Fighter Model 11) on 17 March 1944. Between April 1943 and July 1945, 21st Navy Air Arsenal of Nagasaki and Hitachi Aircraft made 515 units.

When Zero trainer entered service in 1943, IJN was introducing, with the effect of the July 1943 directive, the two-color camouflage of topside an-ryokushoku with white-rimmed hinomaru and under surface hai-ryokushoku. Yellow IFF strips on the leading edges of inboard wings became standard then. Zero fighter's early scheme, hai-ryokushoku overall, was already obsolete then.

Early scheme Zero fighters invariably had hinomaru without white rim on the wings, although Nakajima-built machines wore white-rimmed hinomaru on the fuselage. (I suppose that aimed at easy distinction for field maintenance; Nakajima's parts were not fully compatible with Mitsubishi.) By contrast, Zero trainers, like many other navy trainers, always wore white-rimmed hinomaru on the wings and fuselage. That was because, as I suppose, hinomaru had to stand out against the background; the orange overall color needed the white rim." ("OUT OF AMEIRO CLOUD INTO HAI-RYOKUSHOKU SKY," by Yoshihito KUROSU; translation by Ryutaro NAMBU, http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/amerio/out_of_ameiro.htm)

IF A6M2 model 21 fighters [KA-101, KA-103] are indeed painted the IJNAF equivalent of "trainer yellow," then the l/e stripes "could be" red. IF the two aircraft are in hairyokushoku (gray-green) livery, then I find it difficult to understand why the stripes would be painted differently that the usual yellow. Could we be seeing a darker version of the yellow color or, perhaps, have these photos been taken with orthochrome film which renders yellow very darkly in b/w photos?

Jim Lansdale

IFF Specs

Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 7:05 a.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!! (James F. Lansdale)

Dear Lansdale sama,
the photos that I have, are the two included in the "In Action" book and one in the Model art. Also a color profile. What I can come up with, are the following:
a) in the In Action photos, the color of the plane looks very "hairyokukashoku" to me. Though if it was light yellow I wouldn't be able to distinguish it. But the IFF stripes don't look so dark to justify the "red" color. Then again, if it was "pinkish" or yellow, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference either.
b) the only "source" I have is the sayings of the same person. In this case contradictory but this contradiction might be justified because of the age difference of the books. So I would most probably choose the latest book. So, according to Model Art, the planes were painted "Ame Iro" and the author states very hard (my wife says that the small dot above the Kanji, means a very strong statement. Does he know something that we don't?) that the IFF stripes of both planes were "red".
I don't disagree with you in any way. The planes look very unusual to me too. Then, what about the very unusual cowling color? Looks more IJA to me. So the "red" or "pinkish" IFF stripes make some sense. Many VERY strange theories can be made by this 2 planes. Were they lent to a IJA unit for testing? The pilots, were ex-army? Seems impossible to me.
Now, if only someone could come up with more photos of these planes........
Waiting to read your thoughts. Takeuchi sama, kangae ga arimasu ka.
Domo
George

Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 7:23 a.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!! (Elephtheriou George)

Hi George

This unusual scheme may also be explained another way. One speculation for these photos gives credence to the overpainting of the usual hairyokushoku scheme with the "trainer yellow." One researcher believes that the yellow was carried all the way up to, but not including, the top half of the usual black cowl. This explains the apparent anomaly in cowl color demarcation.

I believe that we need more input from the veterans. KUROSU-san has conducted extensive research into this area and, pending any new evidence, I would have to say that yellow (or dark yellow) l/e is more probable on a gray-green surface. However, I would also see the logic of painting a yellow aircraft with a darker red l/e if IFF was the purpose of the identification. On the other hand, if an aircraft is painted bright "trainer yellow," why would there be a need to further identify it as a "friendly" over Japan proper?

I sincerely love this esoteria!!! (;>) Thank you for starting such a neat topic!

Jim Lansdale

Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 10:43 a.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!! (James F. Lansdale)

Lansdale sama e,
thank you for your fast reply, your kind words and your patience.
If we completely forget the perverted logic of Zeros been used/tested by the army (okay, okay I forget it. I don't like it either) and follow your comments, then I have to observe the following:
a) if we credit the researcher's comment that the yellow training paint was followed all the way up to the cowling, this leaves us with the natural question: WHY? Do you see any reason for not painting all the cowling "black"? And why only these two machines? As a conclusion, ALL other training planes should have been painted "hairyokukashoku" or orange. Only those with the top painted cowling should be in yellow color. No? Why and who came with that idea of painting training planes yellow, when the "standard" practice was to paint them orange or leave them in their natural "fighting planes" scheme?
b) Please, let me guide you a little, so that you can guide be back. The photo (according to the M.A. book) was taken in the Autumn of Showa 18 (1943). What do we know of the IFF application standards of the time? What was the "general" rule? If the IFF application was in it's starting point, then both red and yellow are possible.

Let me follow your logic. "If the plane was painted yellow there is no need to apply yellow IFF stripes to identify it as friendly". Exactly because of this reason and because they wanted to identify it, then the red paint is probable as the yellow IFF wouldn't show on a yellow paint. I'm NOT supporting fanatically the red IFF. It's THAT DOT in the book that makes me skeptical.
Do you want other explanations?
a) to confuse the Americans
b) to confuse us modelers and historians 57 years later.
c) because these two pilots wanted their planes to be painted like that. End of story.
Domo
George

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 2:00 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-101 and 103 with RED IFF stripes!!!!!!!! (Elephtheriou George)

Hi again George

I am going to go out on the proverbial limb and attempt to interpret the b/w photos of A6M2 model 21 [KA-103] illustrated on page 7 of "A6M Zero In Action."

Using the criterion that the hinomaru and propeller warning stripes in the photos are red and the aircraft is gray-green, it would appear that the l/e IFF stripes are either not red or a different shade of red than the hinomaru and propeller warning stripes. If the l/e IFF stripes in these photos were red, then they should appear to be as dark as the hinomaru. Also, compare the contrast of the aircraft mainframe color tone with the hinomaru on page 10 of the same publication.

I cannot say categorically that the IJN never painted the wing l/e red for purposes of IFF. I only think it was unlikely.

You may be correct that the pilots really meant to confound us fifty-seven years later!!! (;>)

Jim Lansdale

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: Joern Leckscheid <mailto:Joern.Leckscheid@t-online.de?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 3:15 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (James F. Lansdale)

George and Jim,

As we've reached the subject of interpreting b/w photos by now I'd like to join in at this point. It is indeed very thin ice to tread, especially comparing two photos of different planes, i.e. those on pages 7 and 10.
Take a look at the red prop stripes above the pilots head in the upper photo on page 7. It is exposed to the sun at approximately the same angle as leading edge stripe, and the shade of gray of both looks kind of similar to me, while the stripes on the other two prop blades, being exposed to the light at different angles, are considerably darker. If the plane was indeed overpainted in orange, the paint crew did a terrific job by even painting the cockpit framework in such a meticulous way!

Best wishes,

Jeorn

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 3:41 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (Joern Leckscheid)

Hi Joern

Thank you for your input.

The bottom picture on page 10 of "A6M Zero In Action" IS of the same airplane pictured on page 7. These photos are part of a series of photos taken the same day at a "photo opportunity" at Kasumigaura. NOHARA-san only published a small selection of photos in this publication from his collection.

Jim Lansdale

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 5:19 a.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (Joern Leckscheid)

Lansdale sama e,
I agree with you to all.
Only one minor objection. I don't think it's very proper to fully discredit someone's work so easily. What I mean is that okay, Nohara san is making mistakes, but his books are a very good reference and guide material (at least to me). I don't consider him THE authority on the subject rather a good reference that should be more worked out and double checked. I don't want to defend him but not to attack him either.
As from a modeler's point of view, the KA-101,103 subject looks very confusing, to say the least. Since there are no hard evidence I would go for the "hairyokukashoku" paint scheme with the pinkish or red IFF stripes. I wish I could paint the model with a yellow/orange scheme. Then, it would be most interesting.
Anyway, Lansdale sama, thank you so much for your help, time and patience.
Yours
George

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 6:13 a.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (Elephtheriou George)

Hi George

You wrote, "I don't think it's very proper to fully discredit someone's work so easily. What I mean is that okay, Nohara san is making mistakes, but his books are a very good reference and guide material (at least to me)."

I could not agree with you more! Shigeru NOHARA is the preeminent illustrator and writer on Japanese military aviation subjects in Japan. His work is outstanding and he has done a great deal to promote interest in this subject. I have collaborated with him on many of his books and I am proud to have worked with him. We have had our differences of opinion. My statements were meant to point out that his style of writing (perhaps out of necessity because of limited space in his publications) does not allow the luxury of extensive footnotes and citations. I usually have to press quite hard to get an answer to a question of whether or not the material he has written is a statement of opinion or fact. Please notice that his most recent works are quoting sources or making more qualified comments.

No researcher is free from making mistakes, least of all myself. I recall, many years ago, distinctly believing that Zeros had red cowlings because John STROUD had illustrated them that way! Also, more recently, I denied the possibility that the Japanese had painted ANY wing leading edges IFF stripes red! That is, until the orders of 6 October 1942 were cited by NOHARA-san in Model Art No. 565.

Further examination of more clear photographs of [KA-103] in FAOW No.5, pages 1 and 27, and FAOW No.55, page 62, supports your contention that the wing l/e IFF stripes are certainly darker than the usual IFF stripes. They very well could be a darker version of akatombo yellow/orange or even red!

You further wrote, "I don't consider (NOHARA-san) THE authority on the subject rather a good reference that should be more worked out and double checked." Absolutely dead on! No one author or researcher should be considered THE authority. The state of the art of research is that it is always an on-going project. New information and facts constantly come to light. When authors publish they do so with great courage because someone else is sure to build on what they have written and some of their research could have been flawed or incomplete. It is far easier and more secure to remain a research mole digging for information to make one's work more complete than risk publication and the possible criticism for any mistakes one makes in his work.

George, I truly appreciate your observations and insight. Your type of questions are the incisive prods that spur the research we all do and make our hobby so rewarding.

Jim Lansdale

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 7:15 a.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (James F. Lansdale)

Lansdale sama,
Again domo arigato gozaimasu for your kind and encouraging words. A lot of credit should go to my beloved wife Kiri whose help to read those @#$& Kanjies is invaluable.

A last question, if I may. How does the IFF stripes of the Zero that won in the last year's IPMS show, look to you? They look too yellow to me. An excellent model by the way.

Thank you again and I hope that I inspired you just a bit to start searching again on this quite overlooked subject of Japanese trainers. I'm sure there are many who would like to hear your thoughts.
Yours
George

P.S. By the way, "Akatombo" means "Red Dragonfly" and it's the nickname of Yokosuka K5Y trainer "Willow" because the majority of them were painted training orange. Is there also a color called "Akatambo"?

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James Holloway <mailto:fholl46282@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 11:08 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (James F. Lansdale)

Sirs, I have been attempting to confirm this very scheme as it is one of the unusual planes I wanted to illustrate. I was leaning to the orange and red scheme. Hopefully, I can find out more when I return to Japan. Has anyone seen the photo of one of the two zeros with a Claude behind it? It was in the same scheme, seemingly with red stripes but with a full black cowl. I believe the tail code was Ka 105 or 7. I saw another photo of this claude with dk green overpainted. I assume if this was the same plane it was taken at a later date. In the photos I had seen, the Stripe on the landing gear, the blue stripe always matched the roundels while the red matches the wing stripe. Sincerely, James Holloway

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 4:36 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (James F. Lansdale)

Lansdale and Leckscheid sama,
let me put the things in order a bit and correct me please if I'm wrong. So far we mostly talk about KA-101. Okay. Then the plane's color scheme and the IFF stripes have 3 possible variations.
1)either the plane was painted "hairyokukashoku" and the IFF stripes were "yellow" (the usual scheme) or
2)the plane was painted yellowish and the IFF stripes could be a short of red (the unusual scheme) or
3)the plane was painted "hairyokukashoku" and the IFF were "reddish" (another unusual scheme)
Lansdale sama, you mentioned in a previous message that there is evidence of a yellow color used on training planes above the "ame iro". Are you talking about the usual training orange color that was used in planes like let's say the Akatombo? Or another short, more yellowish? And Leckscheid sama, your observations are most interesting.

Although a lot said about the KA-101, that leaves as with the KA-103. And I would like to add something. Lansdale sama, you mentioned that these photos are just a few from the collection of Nohara sama. I still wonder if he knows something that we don't.
Iroiro domo arigato gozaimasu
George

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 6:26 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (Elephtheriou George)

Hi George

I am not sure of the exact color on reisen ren. I have samples of at least three different colors/hues of yellow or yellow-orange for IFF and/or overall color on bi-plane trainer types. When I said, "there is evidence of a yellow color used on training planes above the 'ame iro,'" I was using the term "trainer yellow" in a generic manner. Some call this yellow, yellow-orange, or akatombo. I have not systematically organized or studied this range of colors.

Re NOHARA-san; He, like many of us, is a student of this subject. He sometimes does not qualify what he writes/illustrates or distinguish what is conjecture from fact. For example, he initially illustrated the [Q-102] markings on one of the Buna Hamps as black with a yellow outline (see page 26 illustrating [Q-122]). Color photographs in the HICKEY collection showed these markings as red with a white outline. We often assume an artist has evidence for his illustrations, but later evidence forces corrections in our assumptions. NOHARA-san did write in "A6M Zero In Action," that [KA-103] was painted "overall light gray with yellow/orange IFF stripes on the leading edge of both wings." Is this a fact or his interpretation of the photo? I do not know, but I can accept it in general for now. Often, as a result of this style of writing, we may not discriminate what is conjecture from what is factual based on written or other evidence. Once an author has written a statement or illustrated an aircraft in a particular color it becomes "fact" to those who accept it as such. It is preferable to qualify such statements or illustrations or give evidence for same.

Jim Lansdale

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James Holloway
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 1:20 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (James F. Lansdale)

Sirs, have gone through my sketches of Ka 101 &3 and recall there is a photo that shows both planes and the Claude in the light body color and very dark IFF stripes. There are also two other aircraft in the photo right next to them, a two seater with spats and I think, a Kate. Both of these planes have the dk green uppersurfaces and the stripes show up as the usual light color. The Zeroes are described as retired planes. I was told a while back that these planes may have been stripped of paint to the natural aluminum. I started to lean toward the orange overpaint because I was led to believe all training aircraft were orange, and I have seen some clear photos where the chipping on the cowling shows black underneath, and there is definite chipping on the port sides were crew operate. Could these planes have red stripes because they are senior flight instructors? Sincerely, James Holloway

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:elgeorge@otenet.gr?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 6:03 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (James Holloway)

Mr Holloway,
thank you for continuing to pursue the subject. Without your mail, I wouldn't be able to see that the third plane in the photo of Model Art 510(page 198) is a K10W1 or Oak!!!! The Japanese version of a North American type!! It's the second photo that I see of this type.
Back on the KA-101,103. You wrote: "gone through my sketches....and there is a photo that shows both planes and the Claude". So far I haven't see a photo of BOTH KA-101, 103. I have seen photos of either one or the other. If you have such a photo would you please be so kind to send it over?
You also wrote: "The zeros are described as retired planes". In which book was that info written? English or Japanese book? Let's follow this info. As the type of these Zeros is an early one and the photos were taken in 1943, maybe these planes were first allocated to a fighter unit and then (maybe because of the obsolesce of the type. Although that type was never considered as obsolete. So I don't know about the "retired" statement) were given to a training unit. That way, there is a possibility that they were stripped from their original color and repainted. You mention that: "I was told...". Could you please state your sources?
The photo in the In Action book, page 10 is puzzling me. The photos of KA-101 in page 7 show a very neatly painted plane (excellently stated by Mr. Leckscheid). But the photo in page 10 show a very weathered cowling. Are we looking at a completely different plane or the KA-103?
Not ALL training planes were painted orange. Especially during the closing phases of the war. The general rule was that but there were many exceptions.
Finally, your question about the IFF stripes and their relation with the flight instructor's status, is very interesting. Anyone with more ideas?
Thank you
George

Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!

Posted By: James Holloway <mailto:fholl46282@AOL.COM?subject=Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes!>
Date: Monday, 14 August 2000, at 7:56 p.m.

In Response To: Re: KA-103 with RED IFF stripes! (Elephtheriou George)

Sirs, first to list my sources, nearly all have come from Japanese publications, interviews or newsreels. A lot of the books I used I couldn't afford or bring back with me so I would sketch the Photo while my Uncle translated. (He was in the Kaiten Program) I also watch ALOT of newsreel film, which is where alot of published photos are from. Most are available in books like FAOTW AND Model art but the print quality varies greatly. I am now in the process of comparing notes and listing sources as well as discarding obsolete material. I hadn't done this originally as I was doing this for myself and was told there would never be any interest in the States. While in Japan I am able to compare the same photos in various publications, most I couldn't tell you as I no longer read or speak Japanese. I will be going back this year to fix a lot of this. I no longer think that the red stripes are senior instructors, possibly the zero pilots were. Going thru my Claude file I found a bunch with red stripes, plus a notation that overseas and Home A/C to have yellow stripes while uncamoflauged Training A/C (home) were to have red. CLAUDE KA 107 became a target tug. I have seen in a KOKUFAN a photo of Zero KA IOI in dark green with orange bottom( don't know if same plane) as well as several others, I do have the tail codes which is why I thought 101 & 3 were painted orange. I could go on, but don't want to make this too long. I will add more if you like. I will find the photo that shows both planes, I remember it was a double page spread. Thanks James Holloway

Carrier borne A6M2b aces

Posted By: jonathan strickland <mailto:jestrick@earthlink.net?subject=Carrier borne A6M2b aces>
Date: Sunday, 13 August 2000, at 8:23 p.m.

When I do get around to building Hasegawa's Type 21 I'd like to finish it in markings from 1942. Did Iwamoto continue flying EII-102 in the Indian Ocean & Coral Sea campaigns? (If not does anybody know what he switched to?) Another alternative might be Fujita's Zero from Midway. I'm sure there has been discussion about this before but what might his markings have been?

Re: Carrier borne A6M2b aces

Posted By: Tom Matlosz <mailto:slayer14@bellsouth.net?subject=Re: Carrier borne A6M2b aces>
Date: Tuesday, 15 August 2000, at 10:30 a.m.

In Response To: Carrier borne A6M2b aces (jonathan strickland)

Jonathan,

With regards to Iyozoh Fujita's A6M2:

There is a photo of the Soryu's Fighter Squadron during the Spring of '42 in Robert Mikesh's Zero book. BI-151 is widely accepted as Fujita's mount at that time.

There are Japanese deck crew witness accounts who state that the Soryu's aircraft were recoded prior to Midway to reflect a change in the 2nd Carrier Division's flagship from Hiryu to Soryu. The accounts state that the Soryu's planes were recoded to BII along with changes to the attendant fuselage bands. There is no photographic evidence or written record to prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt. This topic has been covered before in detail in previous strings.

I chose to finish my Fujita Zero as BI-151. At the recommendation of Dave Aiken, I utilized a slightly lighter shade of blue for the fuselage band.

Hope this helps,

Tom Matlosz

Sasai's A6M2?

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Sasai's A6M2?>
Date: Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 1:52 p.m.

I am sure that this question has probably been asked before,
but does anyone no the Tail Code for Jun-Ichi Sasai's (The Richtoffen of Rabaul)A6M2? My reason for asking is in the book Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units of World War II
there is a Tainan AirGroup A6M2 in flight in a black and white photo with markings V-117. It has two vertical stabilizer stripes and two fuselage stripes. However there is no indication of who flew this Zero. I also watched the movie Zero Pilot and the airplane that Sasai flies in this movie is V-107 with two horizontal stabilizer and fuselage stripes? Didn't Sakai fly V-107 also?(I know this is reaching because the planes depicted in that movie are painted incorrect color for the time period. Dark Green over grey instead of Air Superiority Light Grey. However Sakai's A6M tailcode is shown correct as V-128. I know that there isn't much if any accuracy to movie depictions, but I would like to know what the tailcode of Sasai's A6M2 was) V-128,V-103, and V-107 have been linked to Sakai. Maybe there is a way to do some research to find out which Zero Sasai flew. Or at least we may be able to find out who flew
V-117.

Thanks for any comments, suggestions, and advice ahead of time.

Cruiser K

Re: Sasai's A6M2?

Posted By: Ed DeKiep <mailto:eddekiep@novagate.com?subject=Re: Sasai's A6M2?>
Date: Wednesday, 6 September 2000, at 9:07 p.m.

In Response To: Sasai's A6M2? (Cruiser K)

The instruction sheet for Hasegawa's Kit No. AP143, Mitsubishi A6M2b Zero Fighter Type 21 "Tainan Flying Group", 1/72 Scale indicates that the aircraft with V-117 tail code in white outlined in red, with two diagonal fuselage stripes in red and two horizontal stripes on the vertical tail in blue, was of the 2nd Chutai, 21st Shotai and was piloted by Lt. Masumi Sedo.

On page 132 of the Hata and Izawa book you referenced, there is mention of Lt. Masuzo Seto leading a chutai of the Tainan Air Group into Legaspi airfield (Philippines) in mid-December 1941. Certainly, due to the similarities in Unit Assignment, tail code color consistent with the Philippines operations, rank, and name, this is the same person.

Other references to Seto in this book indicate he was Group Leader of the Shokaku Fighter Squadron from March - September 1943 and later was Commander of the 221 Air Group, 315 Fighter Hikotai (LCDR rank). I couldn't find any reference to victories or his ultimate fate.

Thanks,
Ed

Re: Sasai's A6M2?

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: Sasai's A6M2?>
Date: Tuesday, 5 September 2000, at 11:44 p.m.

In Response To: Sasai's A6M2? (Cruiser K)

In addition to this I would like to add the page #133
of (Hata, Izawa, and Gorham) where the black and white photo can be found. the two stripes on tail and rear fuselage indicate chutai (group leader) page 132 of same reference shows V-107 as another A6M piloted by Sakai.
Chutai leaders at the Attack on Guadalcanal 8-7-42.
LCDR Tadashi Nakajima, Lt Shiro Kawai, and Jun-ichi Sasai.

Cruiser K

Takeo Tanimizu's A6M3

Posted By: Jega <mailto:jega1@hotmail.com?subject=Takeo Tanimizu's A6M3>
Date: Monday, 18 September 2000, at 12:01 a.m.

Hi, this is my first time here.

My query is:
Did Japanese ace Takeo Tanimizu ever fly the A6M3? I know he flew the A6M5 & I have seen pictures of him with his plane, but I cannot find pictures of his A6M3 other than the Hasegawa 1/72 A6M3 box top. I have searched the 'net for any reference to his A6M3 but have come up with nothing. Any pictures would be appreciated. Thanks kindly.

Re: Navy Takeo Tanimizu's A6M3

Posted By: Cruiser K
Date: Monday, 18 September 2000, at 1:38 p.m.

In Response To: Takeo Tanimizu's A6M3 (Jega)

I believe that Tanimizu did fly an A6M3 also his plane with markings can be found in Japanese Naval Aces 37-45.

Re: Thanks Cruiser. Link works,

Posted By: Tennessee Katsuta <mailto:tennkats@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Thanks Cruiser. Link works,>
Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 11:31 p.m.

In Response To: Thanks Cruiser. Link works, (Jega)

Hi, Jega

There is a photo of Tanimizu standing in front of his A6M3 in question on page 141 of Koku Fan Illustrated No. 53. Unfortunately this issue is long out of print.

Tennessee

A6M2 of Lt. Tamotsu Yokoyama

Posted By: Paul Berkebile <mailto:landser@adelphia.net?subject=A6M2 of Lt. Tamotsu Yokoyama>
Date: Thursday, 28 September 2000, at 9:54 a.m.

I've got another A6M started. I'd like to use an Aeromaster set to do Lt. Tamotsu Yokoyama's A6M2 Type 21, X-108. According to the decal sheet, he led the 3rd NAG in Taiwan, Dec. 1941. If anyone has seen photos of this aircraft I have the following questions:

1. Did this Aircraft have a radio? (I suspect the answer is yes if he was the group CO.)

2. Did it have the DF loop under the rear canopy?

3. Did it have the mass counterbalances on the underside of the ailerons?

Thanks,

Paul

Re: A6M2 of Lt. Tamotsu Yokoyama

Posted By: François P. WEILL <mailto:frpawe@wanadoo.fr?subject=Re: A6M2 of Lt. Tamotsu Yokoyama>
Date: Thursday, 28 September 2000, at 10:36 a.m.

In Response To: A6M2 of Lt. Tamotsu Yokoyama (Paul Berkebile)

Hi Paul

I hope what follows might be of some help:

Questions 1 and 2

They are linked together as the presence of a radio mast on a Model 21 means the DF loop is carried. At such an early date and with a Zero based on Japanese territory, no doubt they were present. Deletion of the radio set (and accordingly the DF loop which wouldn't have been operational without a radio set occurred (against the regulations) to save weight on planes operating in the Solomon when it was found that under the primitive maintenance conditions and with the poor quality of the early radio sets weight saving was more important than an unusable radio device. This seems to, be applicable to Model 21's, 32's,22 and 22 Ko's (and perhaps some original Model 52's before the new and more reliable sets came into the standard equipment of later planes and were retrofitted to some earlier Models (this is noticeable by the use of a shorter, straighter radio mast). Incidentally, notice that ANY carrier born Zero kept the radio set, the DF loop and the radio mast. Reliability of the device is one thing, condition of maintenance seems to be the fundamental question that lead to the deletion of the set...

The answer of question 3 is a bit more complicated as it is linked to the serial number of the plane. If airframe is later than # 326, then their are no mass balance. So you'll need the serial number or a pic of the particular plane.

Friendly

François

Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105

Posted By: Rick Findley <mailto:rfindley@mcdean.com?subject=Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105>
Date: Thursday, 17 August 2000, at 5:51 a.m.

What is the correct model of Hiroyoshi Nishizawa's A6M3 coded UI-105 on Rabaul c.1943. In Aeromaster's "Eagles of the Rising Sun" his a/c is identified as a Model 32 Hamp and in another place it is identified as a Model 22. Anyone know which is correct?

Thanks

Rick

Re: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105

Posted By: Cruiser-K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105>
Date: Thursday, 17 August 2000, at 1:55 p.m.

In Response To: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105 (Rick Findley)

Nishizawa's Zero UI-105 is a A6M3-Model 22. It mottled green over light grey paint scheme. There is an excellent model of this airplane. I am not sure now of the site but I will send it to you when I find out. Or I will post a bitmap of the model. Photo's and research can be found in Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 37-45.(A painting appears on the cover) And in Zero Combat Development and History by Mikesh.

Re: IJN Reorganization 1 November 1942

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: IJN Reorganization 1 November 1942>
Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 5:57 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105 (Tony Feredo)

Tony

You asked, "Was Tainan Ku renamed 251 Ku? If so... why and when?"

The IJN underwent substantive reorganization following the disaster at Midway. As a part of this reorganization, previously named and numbered operational kokutai were redesignated. All training/special naval district kokutai remained named.

These changes were first introduced in October 1942, but the majority of these redesignations occurred effective 1 November 1942 and afterward. The operational fighter unit known as Tainan kaigun kokutai was redesignated 251 ku while a training unit, stationed at Tainan base retained the designation Tainan ku. Another example was the No. 3 kaigun kokutai which was redesignated 202 ku.

See Japanese Monograph No.116 for a complete listing.

IHTH

Jim Lansdale

Re: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105>
Date: Thursday, 17 August 2000, at 10:30 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Nishizawa's A6M3 UI-105 *PIC* (Hiroyuki Takeuchi)

Thanks Hiroyuki for posting the image for me. I have seen various several photos (b&w) and depictions of this popular aircraft. There is definitely some controversy about the color of the UI- tail code. The reasoning that you give is a valid one indeed. The plane is depicted on the cover of Imperial Japanese Navy Aces 37-45 in black UI-tail code and with what appears to be a solid dark green top coat over light grey. with the dark green being weathered. In Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units of WWII the plane is depicted also as dark green top with light grey bottom silver spinner and mention is given to the very statement made by you that the tail code UI was often painted black or painted over in dark green making it less visible. The best sources for me are the black and white photos of UI-105 in flight. According to my interpretation these photos the plane was light gray and painted over in a mottle like dark green camouflage. On the top surfaces. Very similar to the image of the model posted here. It is impossible for me to tell however from the black and white photos what color the UI is. It is barely visible. But from what I have read it was quite possibly black, for all the reasons stated earlier by you. Thanks

(Air Superiority light gray suits me, this is the reference
that I like to use to early models Zeroes, whereas I see here there is some serious debate as to their original color of these early Zeroes.)
Sincerely,

Cruiser K

Kugisho Report No.0266 Translations: Ameiro Origin

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Kugisho Report No.0266 Translations: Ameiro Origin>
Date: Thursday, 14 September 2000, at 3:50 a.m.

Translations From:

Kaigun Koku Gijutsusho (Ku-Gi-Sho) Hokoku Bango 0266
Zairyo Hokoku Bango (Zai-Ho) 0217

"Study Of Camouflage Schemes For The Type Zero Carrier Fighter"

Experiments with various paint types and colors and a study of possible painting schemes to be applied to the Mitsubishi A6M2 model 21 Type Zero carrier fighter were conducted by the Kaigun Koku Gijutsusho (Naval Air Technical Arsenal) under the auspices of the Yokusuka Kaigun Kokutai from November 1941 until February 1942. The Kugisho issued Hokoku Bango 0266 (Report No.0266) on 25 February 1942. In addition to many details regarding several paint colors and schemes used, one of which was adopted in 1943, the report detailed the factory color of the Zero at that time and included official color chips. Many passages referred to the "presently" or "currently used color" of Zeros but the report did not have a sample of the "currently used color" attached.

On page 3 of the report, immediately following a selection of seven color chip samples of the colors used in the experimental study appears the following Japanese passage (in Romanji):

"Genyo Reishiki Kansen yo toshoku ha J3 (haiiro) no yaya ameiro ga karitaru mo kotaku wo yurusu ten jikken toshoku to kotonareri." Posted on J-Aircraft.com by Katsushi Owaki via Tom Hall, 9/11/2000.

This passage has been translated by various persons fluent in both the Japanese and the English languages. Note the various nuances in the following list of translations.

1. "Presently used color of Zero fighters is J3 (hai-iro) [T.N. ash color] almost ameiro [T.N. caramel candy color or amber] with luster, so it is different from the paint of the experiment." Translated by Mitsuko Poletti, 7/24/95.

2. "The currently used paint for the Zero fighter differs from the experimental J3 gray in that it is glossy and has a light amber tint."

Or:

"The experimental J3 gray paint differs from the currently used ameiro (amber) paint for Zero fighters in that it is flat and has less amber tint." Translations/interpretations by Robert C. Mikesh, 7/16/96.

3. "The color of operational Type 0 Carrier Fighter is J3 (Gray) slightly inclined to amber color [ameiro] but it is different from the color used for this study because it is glossy." Translation by Shorzoe Abe, 7/17/96. N.B. Abe-San added the following comment; "What I understand from the sentence is all Type 0 Carrier Fighter in service at that time were painted J3 (Gray) with amber color slightly and in glossy finish."

4. "The currently used paint-color for the type Zero carrier fighter is J3 (gray) with detectable light-amber tint; only the fact that this currently used paint-color is glossy makes it different from the experimental paint-color.: Translated by Tom Momiyama, 7/18/96.

5. "Currently used paint color of Zero Fighter is J3 (Gray) [hai-iro] slightly shifted toward candy color [ameiro]. However this is glossy and different from the test color." Translated by Azusa Ono, 7/5/98.

6. "Presently used paint color of the Reishiki Kansen is J3 (ash gray color) almost amber with gloss which makes it different from the lusterless experimental color." Translated by Juzo Nakamura, no date given.

7. "The finish of the current Type Zero Shipboard Fighter differs from the test finish[es] in that it is J3 (Gray) tinted somewhat ameiro and is glossy. " Translation by Tom Hall, 9/14/2000.

The seven translations above each make it clear that the "color" on Type Zero fighters in December 1941 was a gray paint with an amber tone and with gloss. This description is much like that given to the official color standard I 3 which is much like FS-24201/16350. The different experimental color developed and applied to some Zeros used in the experiment was the lusterless (non-specular or matte) J3 ash-gray. This color has been referenced to FS-36357 by Shigeru Nohara directly from the color chip attached to Kugisho Report No.0266. Several other passages in the same report make comparisons of the experimental colors tested to the "currently used ameiro." No other contemporary report makes mention of the color "ameiro." Jiro Horikoshi, chief designer of the Zero, referred to the color of the A6M1 Type Zero carrier fighter prototype as being, "a dimly-shining ash-green (hairyokushoku) except the engine cowling, which was black." (Horikoshi, "Eagles Of Mitsubishi," 1970, p.61).

James F. Lansdale,
14 September 2000

Re: Translations

Posted By: Tom Hall <mailto:hall41@ix.netcom.com?subject=Re: Translations>
Date: Thursday, 14 September 2000, at 9:34 a.m.

In Response To: Kugisho Report No.0266 Translations: Ameiro Origin (James F. Lansdale)

Interesting.

I will accept "paint color" as a good translation of "toshoku" without seeing the kanji. However,
any good Japanese grammarian will tell you that "genyo/genyou" (currently in use) modifies the
airplane, not the paint color. This order was, in fact, the one in the translation you (Mr.Lansdale)
provided me 7/23/99. As I said before, though, this may be a distinction without a difference in meaning.

Grammarians will also tell you that the subject of the sentence is "the paint color of the current
Type Zero Shipboard Fighter", not the test paint. The main verb is "kotonareri". I am not familiar
with this conjugation; the "eri" ending is not used much nowadays. I take it to be an affirm-ative present form of "kotonaru".

May I propose Translation Number Seven?:

The finish of the current Type Zero Shipboard Fighter differs from the test finish(es) in that
it has gloss and is J3 (Gray) tinted somewhat ameiro.

Perhaps a Japanese person can check this and keep me honest. I would appreciate it.

Zero A6m5 Nightfighter

Posted By: Leonardo Oliveira Neves <mailto:luftsturm@bol.com.br?subject=Zero A6m5 Nightfighter>
Date: Saturday, 23 September 2000, at 11:29 a.m.

I need any information about this plane (colors, markings, etc).
Thank's.

Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 12:38 a.m.

In Response To: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter (Leonardo Oliveira Neves)

Ban Dai model sheet of 1/24th scale A6M5c shows a Model 52 night fighter in Yokosuka Air Group markings. Yo-156. Plane is all black cowling and upper and light gray lower. Jim Lansdale has a painting on this site of a night fighter A6M5 that looks like it is an Air Group 302 fighter (Yo-D) but I cant make out the rest from the painting). Zero Combat & Development by Mikesh list the night fighters as attached to 302nd and 153rd Air Groups. Zero was A6M5c with 4 forward firing 20mm (two MkI and two Mk II) and one 30 degree oblique mounted 20mm cannon Mk II on the left side of the fuselage.

Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter

Posted By: Mike Namba <mailto:miknamba@pol.net?subject=Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 10:44 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter (Cruiser K)

I have read reports of A6M5's being painted all black as night fighters. Any evidence of that? I'd like to build a 1/72 kit like this if I could find confirmation that such planes really did exist.

Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter

Posted By: Cruiser K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter>
Date: Wednesday, 27 September 2000, at 10:57 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Zero A6m5 Nightfighter (Mike Namba)

Mike,
I only know of the A6M5 night fighter as having black cowling and black upper surfaces with lower surfaces being light gray. An all black version may exist but I am unaware of it.

Rufe - Kiska - 1942

Posted By: S.M. Fochuk <mailto:vfochuk@sprint.ca?subject=Rufe - Kiska - 1942>
Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 8:34 p.m.

On September 25th, 1942 Squadron Leader Ken A. Boomer of 111 Sqdn RCAF, flying a Curtiss P-40 K-1 downs a Rufe during a raid on Kiska. I would like to know if anyone could confirm this and maybe provide details on the Japanese side of things.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Stephen

Re: Rufe - Kiska - 1942

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Rufe - Kiska - 1942>
Date: Tuesday, 19 September 2000, at 10:34 p.m.

In Response To: Rufe - Kiska - 1942 (S.M. Fochuk)

"The Fighting Floatplanes of the Imperial Japanese Navy" (Yasuho Izawa) in AIR ENTHUSIAST THIRTY-ONE (July - November 1986), says

"...on 25 September [1942], a mix of six more A6M2-Ns and Aichi E13A three-seat reconnaissance floatplanes arrived aboard the floatplane tender KIMIKAWA-MARU. Next day, two A6M2-Ns intercepted a big formation comprising nine B-24s, a B-17, a further camera-equipped B-24, 11 P-39s and 17 P-40s, including a number of Canadian-flown aircraft. They were followed later by another B-17 and 15 escorting P-39s. Lt. Yamada claimed one P-39 shot down, but his wingman failed to return, apparently the victim of Sqn Ldr K A Boomer, commanding officer of the RCAF's No 111 Sqn, and of Lt Col John S. Chennault (son of Gen Claire Chennault of FLYING TIGERS fame), commanding the 11th Sqn, each of whom claimed a float Zero during this raid. P-39s strafed a reported eight floatplanes on the water, their pilots claiming five of these destroyed, but according to Japanese records only two of five A6M2-Ns were damaged as they were preparing to take-off."

Alas, the name of Yamada's wingman is not given in this article.

The A6M2-Ns were from the 5 Kokutai which was redesignated 452 Kokutai on 1 November 1942.

Rufe bases?

Posted By: Milan Vins <mailto:sales.west@prokop.cz?subject=Rufe bases?>
Date: Friday, 13 October 2000, at 12:28 a.m.

Hello Fiends,
Firstly be informed that I am absolute secular concerning planes. My hobby are dioramas mainly with armoures. In case you are interested in you can see some of them on http://www.burleehost.net/ontheway/default.htm or on http://miniaturezone.multimania.com/index.htm.
Nevertheless I have already finished Rufe 1/72 from Hasegawa in gray camouflage from box.
I plan to realize diorama where this Rufe is refueled. My image is to place all on coast of some pacific island.
Can anybody advise some locations where and when the Rufe in mentioned camouflage was based and or other information, some photos atc.
Cheers,
Milan

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Allan <mailto:Wildcat42@AOL.com?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Friday, 13 October 2000, at 12:14 p.m.

In Response To: Rufe bases? (Milan Vins)

Hello Milan,

There were a number of bases that were used by the users of the A6M2N. They were:

Jaluit by 802 Ku
Shortlands by 802 Ku
Dublon Island (Natsushima) Truk Atoll by 902 Ku
Biwa Lake on Honshu by Otsu Ku
Chichi Jima by Sasebo Ku
Kiska Island by 5th/452 Ku
Aru Island by 934 Ku
Johore Island by 936 Ku

There might be others, but I'll check to the Experts

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Mike Yeo <mailto:spyder355@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Thursday, 2 November 2000, at 10:47 p.m.

Allan,

I don't think there were any Rufes based on Johore, which is the southernmost state of the Malayan Penninsula with its southernmost tip facing Singapore island. From the photograph I would say that it was taken at Seletar Airbase, which in 1945 was an IJN seaplane base. The ramp in the photo leading to the waters of the Johore Strait(the shore in the far background is Johore) still exists as part of todays Seletar airport and is used by the Combat Engineer Units of the Singapore Armed Forces based there. Thought I'd shed some light on this matter,

Mike

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Jega1 <mailto:jega1@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 9:47 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Rufe bases? (Mike Yeo)

Hi Mike,

thanks for the clarification about Seletar. Come to think of it, when I first saw that captured Rufe picture, I thought it was taken at Sembawang Park (not that far from Seletar). I recall there being a rusty old ramp leading down to the beach but I'm not sure if it was for pleasure boats or an old Rufe base. I wonder if it's still there?

Btw, where did you get that info about Seletar being used by the IJN and could you e-mail me scans of those 2 photos (A6M2 & A6M5)? Thanks In Advance.

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Mike Yeo <mailto:mikeyeo@bigpond.com?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Saturday, 4 November 2000, at 4:12 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Rufe bases? (Jega1)

The ramp at Sembawang Park is still there. Actually it is a little bit west of the Naval Yard. It is currently in use by the Singapore Armed Force Yacht Club. The Club is due to vacate those premises soon though, no idea what they're going to do with the ramp.

Abt Seletar being used by the IJN, I saw a photo off an old magazine showing a British soldier sleeping among a large number of IJN seaplanes at Seletar, unfortunately the shot did not show types/codes.

The Zero pics were in a book on the Zero I saw at local store. Can't remember the name but I'll try to get the name soon.

Mike

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Allan <mailto:Wildcat42@AOL.com?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 7:28 a.m.

In Response To: Re: Rufe bases? (Mike Yeo)

Mike,

You are quite right. It should have been Seletar. It was the only place to have a ramp. As for the A6M2N operating out of there, IIRC that was late in 1944 or early 1945. Thank you for bringing this error to my attention, I've made a note of it in my files.

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Jim Broshot <mailto:jbroshot@socket.net?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 6:27 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Rufe bases? (Allan)

936 Kokutai seems to have operated from a variety of bases. This is what I have (and I am sure Al has better and more information):

081. 936 Kokutai
1 Nov 1942 formed by redesignation of 40 Kokutai

assigned to 12th Base Force at Singapore with 12 B5N2
Sep 1943 13 Koku Kantai-28 Koku Sentai
May 1945 assigned to 13 Koku Kantai based at Sabang with E13A1 [Winton2]

based at Singapore and Brunei-North Borneo 1942-1945 [Bueschel]
Jul 1945 disbanded and combined with 22nd Special Base Force on Java
aircraft: A6M2-N [Beuschel]

B5N2

E13A1
COMMENT: based at Singapore and Indo-China for convoy and anti-submarine duties

Re: Rufe bases?

Posted By: Allan <mailto:Wildcat42@AOL.com?subject=Re: Rufe bases?>
Date: Friday, 3 November 2000, at 11:11 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Rufe bases? (Jim Broshot)

Jim,

Thanks for the difinitive, and yes, they did operate from various bases under the 1st Southern Expeditionary Fleet and using various aircraft as well. Thanks again Jim...

Rufe Questions

Posted By: Paul Rogers <mailto:pdrogers@mindspring.com?subject=Rufe Questions>
Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 2:11 a.m.

I am building Hasegawa's 48 scale A6M2 Rufe and I have a few questions. Is the cockpit color metallic green? In my reference photo's I can only see lap belts, does the seat also have shoulder belts as well? Also in my photos the instrument panel shows as the same color as the rest of the cockpit, is this true or is the panel black? Here's a big one, I would like to reposition the rudder but I am not sure how large the rudder is. The position of the panel lines on the model makes the rudder seem awfully small. Is the rudder on a Rufe smaller than normal? There are two panel lines on the model, one is almost in line with the vertical stabs and the other is positioned a little higher. The confusion comes from the fact that there is a trim tab positioned in between these two panel lines. If there is anyone out there that can help, I would be grateful. Thanks for your help, Paul

Re: Rufe Questions

Posted By: Ed Esposito <mailto:EEML@home.com?subject=Re: Rufe Questions>
Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 2:43 p.m.

In Response To: Rufe Questions (Paul Rogers)

Paul,

W/re to Rufe cockpit colors, I refer you to Ryan Toews' well-presented 'white paper' on Zero cockpit colors elsewhere on this same Navy A/c board (posted Aug.3; you'll have to scroll pretty far down, but it's still there) and the subsequent responses/discussion. Since, based on all I've read (though I might quickly be corrected by some of the denizens of this site), A6M2-Ns were converted by Nakajima from standard A6M2a Model 11 airframes, their cockpits were likely assembled and finished by Mitsubishi in standard Zero interior colors (opaque greens &/or yellow-greens), though we've no way of confirming this; I've never found reference to any intelligence reports on Rufe relics that describe the interior colors.

As for the instrument panel, it is well documented that in the case of the Zero this was always painted in the surrounding cockpit color, in contrast with most other Japanese types. I've seen no reference to counterexamples, and I assume the same was true for the Rufe.

W/re to shoulder belts, I see no reason why the Rufe should not have been so equipped, but perhaps someone else here has some insight to contribute.

As for your last question, the rudder on the A6M2-N extended the *full length* of the vertical tail, from the tip of the fin to the bottom edge of the ventral strake. (The rear portion of the strake was actually part of the rudder.) Drawings (and kit moldings) suggest that the upper portion of the rudder was fabric covered and the lower portion metal. I assume the reason for the enlarged rudder surface was to provide added control and stability in maneuvering the heavier, more cumbersome floatplane.

Hope this helps.

Re: Rufe Questions

Posted By: Rob Graham <mailto:reishikisenguy@aol.com?subject=Re: Rufe Questions>
Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 8:12 p.m.

In Response To: Re: Rufe Questions (Ed Esposito)

Ed:

Your post:
"Since, based on all I've read (though I might quickly be corrected by some of the denizens of this site), A6M2-Ns were converted by Nakajima from standard A6M2a Model 11 airframes, their cockpits were likely assembled and finished by Mitsubishi in standard Zero interior colors (opaque greens &/or yellow-greens), though we've no way of confirming this; I've never found reference to any intelligence reports on Rufe relics that describe the interior colors."

I see some references about the Rufe being based on the "Model 11" Zero, but I am not a believer. I think the A6M2-N was an entirely Nakajima-built bird. When I read the comments about the spinner being the short Mitsubishi-style, and the wings not folding, etc..., well, I have to say it WAS a Model 11, but that is "Type 2 Model 11 Floatplane Fighter."

My contention stands that the spinner and other things all appeared at certain times, not as "Model 11" or Model 21" and so on.

I think your post is dead on, but this is the only point I don't agree with. I have no proof either way, though. My choice of colors is, ABSOLUTELY, Aeromaster's Nakajima Interior Gray-Green, THE color I would also paint the interior and exterior surfaces of the plane. I would lighten it ONLY to compensate for the gloss finish. But, Ed, you've seen my models, and you can see my standards. I know how I WANT it to look, but execution is another story :^) In my research, there is NO debate about the gray-green, merely HOW green or HOW tan, and it clearly varies, but is it by manufacturer, month, lot of paint, or anything else...?

Ed, you give great advice. Would you like to be a Doctor of modeling? Perhaps a PhD (Plasti-holics Doctor)? :^)

--Rob

Re: Rufe Questions

Posted By: Cruiser-K <mailto:cruiserk@wans.net?subject=Re: Rufe Questions>
Date: Friday, 18 August 2000, at 2:00 p.m.

In Response To: Rufe Questions (Paul Rogers)

It appears that Zero cockpit interiors varied a little. In my modeling I have always used a blue-green paint mixture to simulate cockpit interior color. However I have seen photos that have a grey-green interior (almost olive) it may be due to who manufactured the planes. There are other post on this site involving Zero cockpit interiors. I think Nakajima may have built the Rufe, but if not you can check the other post for interior colors based on Nakajima or Mitsubishi built Zero.