Claude's

 

Posted By: Rob C.
Date: Sunday, 19 August 2001, at 6:51 p.m.

 

Would the varnish coating be applied at the manufacturer, or at the squad level? Basically would all squad , and national marking be overcoated with that amber varnish,or not?
Thanks in advance

Rob C.

 

Re: Claudes

 

Posted By: MDriskill
Date: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 6:39 a.m.

 

In Response To: Claude's (Rob C.)

 

From my study of published photos, there is no evidence that any markings were overcoated with the amber varnish.

 

Re: Claude's Amber Varnish?

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Claude's Amber Varnish?>
Date: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 12:43 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Claudes (MDriskill)

 

Hi Mike

The Western origin of references to clear coating (or the so-called "amber varnish") occurred in Volume IV of "Aircraft of the Fighting Powers" published in 1943. In the Japanese section of the "Compendium of International Military Aircraft Markings [and] Regulation Colour Schemes" appears an interesting mixture of information as follows.

"International markings: A red disc painted above and below the wing tips and on the fuselage sides of both Army and Navy aeroplanes. On camouflaged surfaces the red disc is outlined in white. Many differing camouflage schemes have been tried on Japanese aeroplanes and some have been finished in a clear lacquer (sic) so as to reflect the natural surroundings. The upper surfaces are camouflaged in tints of grey, purple, and green, while the lower surfaces are pale grey. Other machines have been painted pale grey or pale green on both upper and lower surfaces. Unit markings take the form of white horizontal bands of varying thickness across the vertical tail surfaces and vertical bands surrounding the rear fuselage." (AFP, Vol. IV; p.LII)

Commentary: While most of the material cited is generally accurate in spite of the use of generic color descriptions, the most interesting statement herein is the alleged application by the Japanese of "a clear lacquer so as to reflect the natural surroundings." This citation provides the first published record of a so-called clear coat on Japanese aircraft. Research and examination of scores of relics since the time of this publication have failed to support this contention. In fact, the Japanese Naval Test and Research Center at Yokosuka had come to a much different conclusion as early as February 1942. In the "Yokosuka kokutai official report No. 0266, "Research of Camouflage For the Type 0 Carrier Fighter," the writer of the report stated an opposite finding:

"1. The effectiveness of camouflage by the application of various colors differs greatly and is dependent on the background. Therefore, it is difficult for just one color to fit any kind of situation.

2. It is easy to spot aircraft without paint because the reflection of light on the metal [may be seen] at a great distance. If one renders the surface lusterless, one can reduce this weak point no matter what color is applied."
(Yokosuka Kokutai Report No. 0266; p. 2)

Thus, if a clear coat were to be applied and contribute an effective camouflage it would need to be transparent yet not shiny nor made "to reflect the natural surroundings" much like a mirror! However, the assertion that a clear coat had been applied by the Japanese to their aircraft was erroneously repeated:

"The usual camouflage markings are carried by the OB-01 [Mitsubishi G4M Betty] and it is reported that certain of them have been finished in clear lacquer so as to reflect the surroundings in which they are operating." AFP, Vol. IV; p.75.

Commentary: One possible explanation for the shine reportedly observed on the Betty land-based naval bombers is that the glint may have been the result of light reflection on the unpainted lower surfaces of the aircraft or it was the reflection from a paint scheme which had not been rendered "lusterless." Again, it must be emphasized that the reflection of light by the application of a "clear lacquer" would have been the antithesis to the purpose of camouflage and certainly unnecessary if the surface paint were glossy when applied. There would have been no purpose to apply a clear coat to an already shiny surface other than to protect an otherwise bare metal. A flat opaque coat of paint would have been equally effective in protecting the surface and serving as camouflage. In the event, it is extremely difficult to determine if light reflection from a surface is due to the application of a clear coat by merely observing it. One would have to physically examine the painted surface in question layer by layer to make a definitive determination.

I hope this clarifies this issue for our MB members.

Jim Lansdale

 

Re: Amber varnish?

 

Posted By: Graham Boak <mailto:graham@boak98.freeserve.co.uk?subject=Re: Amber varnish?>
Date: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 10:54 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Claudes (MDriskill)

 

I thought that current thinking was for an amber-tinged grey as the basic colour? If so, then clearly nothing would show on any markings.

Or have I missed/misunderstood something?

 

Re: Origins of the Varnish Myth

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Origins of the Varnish Myth>
Date: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 11:39 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Amber varnish? (Graham Boak)

 

Origins of A5M Clear Coat

RE: Aireview on A5M4

Date: 9/19/1999 9:23:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: maystorm@kani.or.jp (Katsushi Owaki)
To: david_aiken@hotmail.com (David Aiken)
CC: lrajim@aol.com (James F. Lansdale)

Dear Mr. David Aiken,

Thank you for your e-mail. Just found the thread between Francois and Jim on "j-aircraft". Jim wants to know what Aireview issue the "Ameiro" on the A5M4 was first cited. It was in issue #289 September 1971. Is there anything in the text to help resolve the "Ameiro" problem?<

Yes, I knew 9/71 issue of Aireview. There are five vanish coated Claudes in sixteen profile drawings, which are 9-151, 9-158 (Hokoku-278), 9-137 (Hokoku-317) of 14 Ku,1940 and VII-111 (Hokoku-348), VII-119 (Hokoku-386) of Soryu, 1941. The illustrator, WATANABE, Rikyu stated that Almite color of upper five Claudes might be standard for Claude painting. These were painted silver first, then over-coated vanish which looked like Almite color of lunch box. I had a telephone call to WATANABE, Rikyu to reconfirm its background a month ago. He got this information from IZAWA, Yasuho who interviewed someone (Mr.WATANABE did not remember his name) who stated vanish coat over silver paint because silver paint was not so tough touchness with seeing of his Hokoku Claude photogragh. Mr.WATANABE had never say for salt air corrosion control.

HASHIMOTO, Kikuo copied profile drawings of VII-119, VII-111,9-151 of Almite Claudes on 4/76 issue of Koku Fan. In 1986,NOHARA, Shigeru wrote vanish coat was painted against salt air corrosion and it was Claude's standard painting since 1939 in his caption of MA#272 Navy fighter special. NOHARA has a lot of errors since his debut of Maru Mechanic #14 Zero special. He wrote vanish coat Zero for explaining Ameiro in FAOW#9 without permission, but which was suggested by OHTA, Masashi. I have a great question why vanish is painted on the metal paint or natural metal. Varnish is for wood parts or component only.

My friend, ASANO, Masaru does not believe varnish coated Claude or Zero and me too. 

Katsushi Owaki

 

Re: Claude's Amber Varnish?

 

Posted By: Dr Mike Hawkins <mailto:mikeh@samart.co.th?subject=Re: Claude's Amber Varnish?>
Date: Tuesday, 28 August 2001, at 4:31 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Claude's Amber Varnish? (James F. Lansdale)

 

The "Aircraft of the Fighting Powers" books were published during the war and were the best that could be done at the time in view of the fact that, unlike the enlightened days in which we now live, there was NO co-operation at that time, from the Japanese side !

Drawings were often inaccurate by present day standards and the B5N, surely a major type, was not even covered.

I therfore feel that comments about colour schemes in these books should be taken with a grain or two, of salt.

Nevertheless, they remain among my fondest possesions.

Aircraft aluminium is quickly corroded by sea water and we are talking about Naval aircraft. Alclad which has a corrosion resistant surface, was widely used for sea operating aircraft but whether this was used on the Claude,
I do not know. Varnish seems quite probable.

 

Re: Claude's Amber Varnish?

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Claude's Amber Varnish?>
Date: Tuesday, 28 August 2001, at 5:12 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Claude's Amber Varnish? (Dr Mike Hawkins)

 

Hi Mike

Francois WEILL has nicely documented the colors of Claudes. He has presented evidence that shipborne Claudes were painted in an anti-corrosion aluminum paint overall on the exposed surfaces.

Jim Lansdale

 

Re: Origins of the Varnish Myth

 

Posted By: Jim Long <mailto:james.i.long@worldnet.att.net?subject=Re: Origins of the Varnish Myth>
Date: Tuesday, 28 August 2001, at 6:23 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Origins of the Varnish Myth (James F. Lansdale)

 

Dear Friends,

I noted one remark in this message about varnish being only for wood products.

Not so. Most Japanese paints of WWII were varnishes with pigments or dyes added for color. Japan had mostly real varnishes because the country had an ample supply of the raw materials needed to make varnishes.

Jim Long

 

Re: Nisu (Ame) Varnish NOT Myth *PIC*

 

Posted By: David_Aiken <mailto:David_Aiken@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Nisu (Ame) Varnish NOT Myth *PIC*>
Date: Tuesday, 28 August 2001, at 8:35 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: A5M4 in color *PIC* (David_Aiken)

 

Subject: "Golden" Claudes/Update
Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:24:56 EST

Dear Dave,
Spoke to my father yesterday to wish him Happy New Year and got the low down on his eye-witness to "golden" Claudes. I had asked him to think about it and do some digging for me when I called him at Christmas, and gave him a week to chew on it. He just turned 79, but is in good health (knock on wood) and his mind is perfectly clear, so we need give no more than the usual allowance for the fallability of human memory that we would give to anyone.

First, however, a little background. As I am sure you are aware, there is reference to the "Nisu" overcoat on Claudes in Bunrindo's Famous Airplanes of the World No. 27 (March 1991) on the Type 96 Carrier Fighter. Most of this book was put together by Kazuhiko Osuo. At p. 67, under the section on "Type 96 Kansen Camouflage and Markings", he says: "actually, the overall silver dope finish was the only basic finish which the Type 96 Kansen had, the brown/green "kumogata" finish seen on aircraft of 12--15 Ku during the early years of the China Incident being no more than a temporary scheme. The procedure adopted in 1939 (Showa 14) of applying a coat of surface preservative ("Nisu") over the silver dope finish on carrier based aircraft as an anti-corrosion measure did cause considerable change in the surface color, and thus, technically, should be distinguished. Almost all Mark 4 Kansen (i.e. A5M4) were in this latter finish." Again, Osuo gives no primary source, but he is a diligent and respected historian/researcher and here we have another source for this phenomenon aside from the Izawa/Rikyu Watanabe line of inquiry.

Now for the details of my father, Yoshio Tagaya's comments to me yesterday. You will see from it that, contrary to Osuo's text in FAOW No. 27, we appear to have evidence that the "Nisu"-coated finish predates Osuo's 1939 date by a considerable margin. The "Air Show" in question took place on Saturday, June 5, 1937 at Haneda Airport, Tokyo from 8:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m.

In case you are amazed and incredulous at his detailed recall, this does not come just from his memory. It is written in the 50th Anniversary of the Graduation of the "Rokuju-Kai" (60th Class) Furitsu Dai-Ichi Chugakko (Tokyo Municipal Middle School No. 1), privately printed on October 31, 1988 and distributed to members of the class. After the war, when the Japanese education system was restructured along American lines, this school, usually referred to in abbreviation as "Furitsu Itchu", was renamed "Hibiya Koto Gakko" or "Hibiya Koko" for short (Hibiya High School), and is still very much in existence today. I am given to understand that much of the material in the 60th Class 50th Anniversary commemorative book was, in turn, taken from a 100 Year Anniversary history produced by Hibiya Koko. (Furitsu Itchu, by the way, was the school attended by Jun-ichi Sasai, Saburo Sakai's buntaicho in the Tainan Kokutai, KIA August 26, 1942/Guadalcanal, before he went on to the Naval Academy at Eta Jima. Sasai was born in 1918. My father was born at the end of 1920. He does not remember Sasai from school personally, but thinks he may have been in the same class as his elder brother, Takeshi Tagaya KIA 1944 North China during Operation Ichigo as a tank commander, but that is another story.)

Anyway, on June 5, 1937 the entire student body of Furitsu Itchu went to Haneda to see the air show. (I suspect the reason was that the school had donated money for a Hokoku plane being presented to the navy that day. I'll have to verify that, however). My father remembers the day as being cloudy (not dark, heavy clouds, but a high overcast), so we can probably rule out sunshine reflecting off the metal finish as a possible answer. He recalls the Claudes, (he remembers there were three (i.e. a shotai)), coming over a little after lunch. They made a dramatic appearance as they suddenly showed up at low altitude, roaring over the hangar line, and proceeded to do aerobatics above the spectators.

He emphasizes that the finish was not "gold" in the sense of being obviously painted a thick gold color. It was a pale but definitely "yellowish" tone over an otherwise normal greyish-silver metal finish. He says it made a strong impression not just on him, but also on all his classmates. He says many of them still talk about it whenever they get together, usually at class reunions. He likens the finish to something known as "alumite", a varnish-treated aluminum which has a distinct golden yellow tinge to it, used for, among other things, children's lunch boxes well into the 60s. Any Japanese in their 40s or older would instantly know what one was talking about. Younger than that, maybe not, as everything became plastic thereafter. I am hard put to come up with something equivalent in American popular culture, however, which would be equally intuitive to Americans. Maybe Owaki san can rustle up and send you an "alumite" bento box. As we all know, the skirmish with Chinese troops at the Marco Polo Bridge on the outskirts of Beijing (Peking), which began the Sino-Japanese War, took place on July 7, 1937, just a month AFTER this air show at Haneda. The planes in question, therefore, would have been pre-China War Mark 1s (A5M1).

All for now.
Sam

PS: Some notes of clarification re, my father's comments. I translated his school, Furitsu Dai-Ichi Chugakko, as Tokyo Municipal Middle School No. 1. The English version of Hata & Izawa's book on Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units, at p. 251, in the section on Jun-Ichi Sasai, gives the translation Tokyo Municipal High School No. 1. We are speaking about the same thing. "Chugakko" literally translates as "Middle School". It should be noted, however, that up to the end of World War II, the Japanese education system was modeled on the German gymnasium system. In the postwar American occupation, the system was changed to reflect the American system. "Middle School" under the prewar system equates to "High School" under the postwar system. What Don Gorham has done in translating the original Japanese text of Hata & Izawa is, not only provide a translation, but changed the word to reflect the system more familiar to Americans.

 

Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Tuesday, 28 August 2001, at 2:01 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Nisu (Ame) Varnish NOT Myth *PIC* (David_Aiken)

 

Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? by Rob Graham (updated 4/10/00)

Much debate has been made over the possibility of golden Mitsubishi Type 96 Carrier fighters (Allied code name Claude) in Japan’s Imperial Naval Air Force. There are documented claims of witness’s accounts of "Genda’s Circus" which allegedly flew golden A5Ms, and that there is a lack of evidence showing the A5M was unprotected NMF. However, while the debate is spirited, it is still very hard to know what is the case. Here are some known facts:
There is one known color slide of an A5M4 in flight.

No A5M relics are known to exist that can prove or disprove the gold finish.

Not ALL A5Ms were finished in a way that could have had the gold finish.
There are eyewitness accounts which have been related by older generations that claim to have seen "golden" aircraft.
A passage in the book of the time indicates Mitsubishi used clear lacquer coats to ensure perfectly smooth aircraft finishes on the Asahi Shimbun newspaper's "Kamikaze" aircraft.

These five facts stand as testimony to the viewpoints in this study.

Viewpoint I: The Claude had a golden colored finish

There is one known color slide of an A5M4 in flight.
David Aiken, a well known researcher in Japanese aviation and a noted historian on the attack on Pearl Harbor, has a color slide of Hokoku 278 A5M4 (tail code 9-158), and it certainly is a gold color. If scanned and the color balance and a number of other settings are shifted, it has a definite golden color to it. Some folks have questioned the authenticity of the slide, some have rejected it as a colorized slide, and some others have accepted it as proof. The slide is a copy of an old shot, it doesn’t have the telltale evidence of many of the old retouched photos (color bleeding, etc), and the Hokoku numbers are not retouched. Parts of the plane (propeller and engine crankcase, maybe the drop tank) appear silver, so it’s not just a matter of a yellowed slide.

On 1/3/2000, Osamu Tagaya emailed Jim Lansdale a note regarding his father's account of the golden Claudes. Jim Lansdale forwarded this information for inclusion:
"Let me give you an update on my father's comments. I had asked him to sharpen his memory of the event and delve into the matter for me when I called him at Christmas, gave him a week to chew on it and got the low down from him when I called to wish my parents a Happy New Year this past Saturday. I should add that my father just turned 79, but is in fine physical health (knock on wood) and his mind and speech are as clear as ever, so I don't think we need to build in any additional margin of error to his comments other than the normal allowances one needs to make for the fallabilities of any human memory.
"First, however, a bit of background. As I'm sure you are aware, Bunrindo's Famous Aircraft of the World No. 27 (March 1991) on the Type 96 Carrier Fighter states, at p. 67 under "Type 96 Kansen Camouflage and Markings" the following: "actually, the overall silver dope finish was the only basic finish which the Type 96 Kansen had, the brown/green "kumogata" finish seen on aircraft of the 12--15 Ku during the early years of the China Incident being no more than a temporary scheme. The procedure adopted in 1939 of applying a coat of surface preservative ("nisu") over the silver dope finish on carrier-based aircraft as an anti-corrosion measure did cause considerable change in the surface color, and thus, technically should be distinguished. Almost all Mark 4 Kansen (i.e. A5M4) were in this latter finish." FAOW No. 27 was put together by Shigeru Nohara, but much of the actual historical material was provided by his historian/researcher partner, Kazuhiko Osuo. Again, no primary source for this statement is given, but it does provide another case of this phenomenon being cited aside from the Izawa/Rikyu Watanabe line of inquiry.
"Now, for my father's comments. You will see from them that we appear to have evidence that the adoption of this "nisu" overcoat procedure actually predated Nohara/Osuo's cited 1939 date by quite a margin. According to my father, Yoshio Tagaya, the air show in question took place on Saturday, June 5, 1937 at Haneda Airport, Tokyo from 8:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m. In case you are amazed or incredulous at his detailed recall, I assure you it is not based solely on memory. It is backed up by statements contained in the 50th Anniversary Graduation of the "Rokuju-Kai" of Furitsu Dai-Ichi Chugakko publication, privately printed on October 31, 1988 and distributed to members. "Rokuju-Kai" ("Association 60") is the class association for my father's graduating class (the 60th) from the school in question, usually referred to in abbreviation as "Furitsu Itchu". (Direct translation would be "Tokyo Municipal Middle School No. 1". This happens to be the same school attended by Jun-Ichi Sasai, Saburo Sakai's buntaicho in Tainan Kokutai, before he went on to the Naval Academy at Eta Jima. At p. 251, the English version of Hata & Izawa's Navy Aces and Fighter Units book gives the translation as "Tokyo Municipal High School No. 1". We are both talking about the same school, but some explanation is in order. A direct translation of "Chugakko" would be "Middle School", but I should point out that the pre-1945 Japanese education system was modeled after the German gymnasium system. After the war, under the U.S. occupation, the education system was restructured along American lines. "Middle School" under the old system equates to "High School" in the American system. Sasai was born in 1918. My father was born at the end of 1920.
"He does not remember Sasai from school personally, but thinks Sasai may have been classmates with his elder brother who attended the same school.
"Under the postwar restructuring, Furitsu Itchu was renamed Hibiya Koto Gakko (or Hibiya Koko for short) (i.e. Hibiya High School) and is still very much in existence today. Anyway, my father remembers the day as being overcast (not heavy dark clouds, but a high overcast). If his memory is accurate, we can probably rule out "sunshine reflecting on metal" as a possible answer. He recalls the Claudes came over shortly after lunch. There were three of them (i.e. a shotai). They made a dramatic appearance, roaring in over the hangar line at low altitude and proceeding to do aerobatics above the spectators. He emphasizes that the color was not a thick gold color like you see on chocolate wrappers. It was a faint golden-yellowish tone over an otherwise "normal" silver-gray metallic finish. He likens it to something known as "alumite", an aluminum that has a distinct golden yellow tinge to it, I assume from being treated with some kind of non-toxic varnish preservative compound. In Japan, among other things, it was used to make children's school lunch boxes until well into the 60s. Any Japanese in their 40s or older would instantly know what one was referring to. (The younger ones, maybe not, since everything became plastic thereafter.) I am somewhat at a loss, however, to give a similar example in American popular culture which would be equally intuitive for Americans. Anyway, my father says that the Claudes made a big impression, not only on him, but on all his classmates as well. He says a lot of them still talk about it when they have class reunions.
"We know that the skirmish with Chinese troops at the Marco Polo Bridge on the outskirts of Beijing (Peking) which was the trigger for the Sino-Japanese War took place on July 7, 1937. That was a month AFTER the air show at Haneda. So we appear to be talking about pre-China War Mark 1 Kansen (A5M1) already appearing in the varnish coated finish."
Further, in support of the possibility of a lacquer clear coat, Jim Lansdale shared with me Stef Karver's email of 15 January 2000, which contained a passage from The Aeroplane (April 14, 1937, p. 439), which said:

"The exterior finish of the machine ("Kamikaze" civilian version of Ki-15 built by Mitsubishi) appears to be very good indeed. The flush-riveting of both the wing and the fuselage is some of the finest we have ever seen. The whole surface has been covered with many layers of clear dope so that not the slightest inequality can be felt."

While this passage has nothing to do with the Claude, it is interesting to note that the first Claudes and the Kamikaze were built by Mitsubishi at almost the same time (1935-1936), using the same technology and techniques of manufacture available, (according to Francillon's Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War) by Mitsubishi Jukogyo KK at Nagoya. The main differences, of course, are that the Claude was a naval fighter, while the Kamikaze was a civilian newspaper's courier plane.
Viewpoint II: There is no substantial evidence the Claude had a golden colored finish
Fact: No A5M relics exist that can prove or disprove the gold finish.
Jim Lansdale, renowned aviation historian, has pointed out that no A5M relics are known to exist in any collection. There are some derelict hulks, but the finish is certainly gone by now. He contends that without proof or reasonable evidence, we have to say we don’t know. He also points out that we can’t tell the presence of a clear coat by looking at a photo.

Viewpoint III: Some Claudes may have had a golden colored finish, but some did not
Fact: Not all A5Ms were finished in a way that could have had the gold finish.
François Weill has summed the three different schemes he has determined:
One NMF finish concerning all planes from the first operational types, except those that were camouflaged, is definitely an NMF finish because the different shades of metal following the panels are clearly discernible. This applies to A5M1 Model 1, A5M2 Model 2-1 early and late, A5M2 Model 2-2 both early and late (these versions being exactly similar in external shape to the Model 4's).
A camouflage finish of Kumogata (cloud style) aspect of dark green and brown on the upper surface, the under surface remaining NMF (applies to Model 1 and Model 2-1 both early and late).
One finish applies only to Model 4: This one looks like a metallic finish of high gloss aspect when new (the panels are all of the same shade). From the B&W documents, it is impossible to tell whether it was a silver paint application or any other metallic color.
Some folks think the A5Ms were camouflaged on their undersides, although they could have had NMF.
Were any A5Ms gold or not?
This is still open, and the facts (or lack of) feed the debate. It is known that the Japanese did not use anodized skin on their aircraft, and common sense prevails to state the aircraft needed to be protected from salt air, as was the case on aircraft carriers. However, just because this was needed does not prove that a clear lacquer was used; Alclad (almost like galvanizing) skin was available.
The possibility of a thick lacquer finish to make the plane as smooth as possible for aerodynamic efficiency seems certainly plausible.
The debate could continue for a long time, but the best answer will likely come from old records from Mitsubishi. Did Mitsubishi apply a coat of lacquer to the Claude, or was the finish applied to the Kamikaze an Asahi-Shimbun exclusive? Did the Japanese Navy have a contractual directive that stated how the Claude were to be delivered, and if so (this would be VERY likely), where might we find a copy? Until more evidence has been uncovered, we shall remain guessing and building our models how we choose!

 

Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:arawasi_g@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Wednesday, 29 August 2001, at 9:00 a.m.

 

In Response To: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? (James F. Lansdale)

 

Konnichi wa Lansdale sama,
thank you for the long posting. I have two questions if I may:
1) Why would the A5M4 (or some of them or whatever) been painted "gold"? Or have varnish or protective whatever? What results this "paint"/protection would have on the plane? And why only the A5M4?
2) IF the "protection" was not applied then why don't we have more photos of A5M4s in a state like later Hayabusas, Bettys etc? I mean, in most of the photos I've seen the colors of the planes appear in very good condition.

Domo,
George

 

Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Wednesday, 29 August 2001, at 4:49 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? (Elephtheriou George)

 

Konnichiwa George!

I hope all continues to go well with you and your bride in Japan!

I have consistently asked the same questions you have asked in your posting and received no substantive answers. Most opinionated responses bear no documented evidence that the Japanese applied a clear coat of whatever substance to the Claude.

Some folks even claim to be able to "see" in black and white photographs a clear coat of varnish on Claudes and other aircraft, which has subsequently turned "amber" or become "yellowed" due to aging.

It is impossible to prove a negative. Therefore, we will have to wait until some substantive and credible evidence is presented to prove the positive view that the IJNAF applied a clear coat finish to any aircraft which had been previously painted in another paint scheme or in n/m livery.

Jim Lansdale

 

Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: Elephtheriou George <mailto:arawasi_g@hotmail.com?subject=Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Wednesday, 29 August 2001, at 8:59 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? (James F. Lansdale)

 

Thank you Lansdale sama for your care and response. Yes we are doing very well and you can imagine how particularly happy I am.
From what I understand from your message we are not 100% sure about the "color" of the Claude. Without having the slightest intention to sound offensive, don't you think that its a bit "hard" to place this option, even though its unsubstantiated, in the same category as lets say the "purple Rufe" and calling it a "myth"?

Domo,
George

 

Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Thursday, 30 August 2001, at 5:30 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? (Elephtheriou George)

 

Hi George

Of course one cannot rule out any possibility.

It is possible that a demonstration team in Japan painted their aircraft in a "gold" finish (Why not?). "Golden" hues may be perceived under a variety of circumstances (e.g. "yellow" Japanese aircraft were reported over Pearl Harbor by eyewitnesses; "grey-poupon" finishes do exist which are a "golden tan" or khaki similar to FS-16160; etc).

What does someone mean by describing a color as "golden?"

My major point of view on this issue is that while any clear paint binder, including a varnish, might be used to hold the paint pigments (a la the interior aotake/aodake preservative coating) there is absolutely no hard evidence that the Japanese applied any non-pigmented material (clear coating) above the surface of an existing coat of pigmented paint. This scenario is possible, but heretofore it has not been documented or shown on existing wartime aircraft relics.

Another objection I have to the contention (i.e. Japanese use of a clear coat surface) is the notion that anyone can detect a coating of clear finish by looking at a b/w photograph AND their ability to describe that this material as being a "golden" hue. Even the color photography we have seen is much too vague to obtain any exacting color match.

"Purple Rufes" did in fact exist, but only after the Rufe hulks had been exposed to weathering for extensive periods of time. However, this was not a standard factory or operational finish. When one makes such contrary statements it is best to qualify the specific circumstances and, fallibly, I do not always follow this dictum!!!

Thank you for your feed back.

Jim Lansdale

 

Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: Claus Krüger <mailto:rana24@freenet.de?subject=Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Thursday, 30 August 2001, at 10:55 a.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? (James F. Lansdale)

 

Hello,
sometime ago I had a disscusion with a person working in the paint Industrie today.He told me that by the time of WW2 and earlyer it was not possible for the paint Industie to produce a really water clear lacqer.All clear Lacqer's had a light brownish or amber tone.I don't know how correct is this statment.But if it so,a clear lacqer on NMF/silver finish can result in a brown-amber-golden finish.

Claus

 

Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?

 

Posted By: James F. Lansdale <mailto:LRAJIM@aol.com?subject=Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw?>
Date: Thursday, 30 August 2001, at 4:44 p.m.

 

In Response To: Re: Was That A Gold Claude I Saw? (Claus Krüger)

 

Hi Claus

You wrote, "if it so,a clear lacquer on NMF/silver finish can result in a brown-amber-golden finish."

For the sake of argument I will agree that what you stated is correct and possible.

Now, the $64,000 question is; do you or anyone else have any physical or documented evidence that a coat of such "clear lacquer" or "varnish" WAS actually applied to the Mitsubishi A5M Claude over natural metal or a "silver finish?" If not, we would have to conclude that all such conjectures are in the realm of speculation.

Thank you for your feedback.

Jim Lansdale